Government is elected and paid to serve the people fully with accountability for their wrongful acts or policies.

It has no business or standing to sue any citizens for civil libel as it is elected to serve the people and would be subject to criticisms or checking by any citizens who should be allowed to do so without fear of being taken to court by the government for civil libel - defamation suit between private citizens.

Civil libel should remain as a limited remedy for defamation between private citizens and not extended to be used by government ministers or officers who may use their influence with the judiciary connected to them to misuse such legal suits against private citizens to serve their own hidden purposes.

The line between rightful or even justifiable criticism and civil defamation is too thin and liable to misuse as a remedy in the hand of politicians to suppress critics.

Government has many other available remedies under the respective Acts or legislations including holding of inquiries to clear their names against unfair criticisms so they do not need the civil libel to provide them with a means of refuge to avoid accountability for wrongful actions or erroneous policies against the interest of the people.

will the opposition stop using civil suits as an excuse to avoid accountability too?

It will take the magnitude of super super x10 tsunamo to change.

This can come in the form of nature's law.

Where Life is finite.

Once that happens,

the ball will start rolling.

one by one,

the dominoes will come crashing down.

Like the berlin wall.

As great as the Soviet Union might had been.

There is still the inevitable.

Like the mudder of all bombs, it starts with the splitting of 1 atom and the rest will follow.

Originally posted by the Bear:

will the opposition stop using civil suits as an excuse to avoid accountability too?

Opposition is not the government and it is unable to use civil suits against the government to its advantage. Once the government leads by example and voluntarily stops using such civil libel to suppress its critics or opposition the rot will naturally stop and our whole society currently so divided by fractious and dirty politics by the ruling party against oppositions and its critics will mend again for the good of all.

There is no reason once the above-stated problem is recognized and civil libel is removed from the government ammunition this restriction of use of civil libel cannot be similarly applied to the opposition with full understanding of all.

you don't get it do you?

'victim mentality'

think about it..

so much so that asswipes like CSJ is using it as a way to solicit sympathy...

he prods the MIW to sue him... and being knee-jerk jerks the MIW are, they will.. and he plays victim to get sympathy and tell everyone he's a martyr...

but he's just an attention wh0re..

those who go about doing their duties, serving the people, doing good, get vilified for being the running dogs of the MIW...

while those who go around screaming their heads off, making outrageous statements with no proof, trying to get themselves sued... are 'leaders of the opposition'

well, there are 2 elected into parliament.. while the self-professed 'leader' can't even muster enough votes to beat the national average...

it takes 2 to tango... the asswipes like CSJ are playing the rabid "anything but the MIW" crowd like a fiddle.. and seems like the crowd enjoy being made use of...

silly isn't it?

I was deprived of my promised bonuses in my last job. I went to ministers and MOM who could not offer me any help so I ended up commencing legal action to recover the promised bonuses.

Problem is I got the bonus but all my bonuses went to pay the legal fee.

The same thing is happening if the government is given the same civil libel to sue blogger or critics or opposition. Government has the fund. Its ministers are well paid and have all the funds to engage the best lawyers to get what they want.

NKF under Durai took actions against whistle blowers and won but at the end when the truths finally came out the whistle blowers were proven right and Durai wrong yet the judges do not get any blame for such incompetence.

The whole government resorting to civil libel to sue private citizens is not serving the benefits of the citizens nor the long-term interest of our nation building.

The rot has to stop sometime somewhere when better and fair leaders lead Singapore again - not the present lot of self-serving leaders who are seeking refuge in civil libel or threat of civil libel to get what they want and get away from accountability of their policies and actions.

Originally posted by the Bear:

you don't get it do you?

'victim mentality'

think about it..

so much so that asswipes like CSJ is using it as a way to solicit sympathy...

he prods the MIW to sue him... and being knee-jerk jerks the MIW are, they will.. and he plays victim to get sympathy and tell everyone he's a martyr...

but he's just an attention wh0re..

those who go about doing their duties, serving the people, doing good, get vilified for being the running dogs of the MIW...

while those who go around screaming their heads off, making outrageous statements with no proof, trying to get themselves sued... are 'leaders of the opposition'

well, there are 2 elected into parliament.. while the self-professed 'leader' can't even muster enough votes to beat the national average...

it takes 2 to tango... the asswipes like CSJ are playing the rabid "anything but the MIW" crowd like a fiddle.. and seems like the crowd enjoy being made use of...

silly isn't it?

It is only a one-sided interpretation of CSJ's legal suit against M/W. Look at the whole picture objectively and you will no doubt see that it has been a consistent pattern throughout how M/W has been using civil libel to put down potential challengers to his authority or his policies or actions.

If CSJ wants to play the matyr there are many other ways to go about it why should he engage in expensive libel suits which will completely exhaust his resources to stay in politics. Think again.

I think the people must help to make a decision. Else, nothing will move.

Which is the bigger problem facing our nation now ? A population which is so afraid to participate in political process or citizens' failure to act responsibly in speaking of his views or criticisms against the government.

If your answer is citizens' not behaving civilly and defaming the leaders at the drop of a hat I think resort by our political leaders to using defamation suits against the citizens may remain a better solution. There is then a case for continuing use of defamation suit by the government to check on rampant ill-behaving citizens who were all out to destabilise society probably a bigger problem leading to anarchy.

Civil libel is already in existence for ages and we do not see citizens resorting to civil suits so often to clear their names being defamed.

Most of our civil libel suits were political in nature some even for worlds uttered in the heat of election.

So to me the bigger problem is misuse of civil libel for tackling or fixing political critics and that is something has to be checked and stopped to bring back our vibrancy as a country where people will speak out to check on wrong doings or incorrect policies rather than being so cowed by all the threats caused by misuse of such politically motivated civil libel suits to serve the narrow minded hidden agendas of politicians.

This move to stop the use of civil libel for political purpose will also be good for the government because with such bad blood purged from our present politics government will once again become more participative and professional.

Our present leaders if far sighted should take the lead in this matter - think out of the box or change their present "I win/You lose" paradigm.

Govt lent Indo $5billion in 1998…when an idiot comes out and say govt corrupted 3 years later and inflates that sum by more than double..i think he deserves to be bankrupted…

Originally posted by the Bear:

will the opposition stop using civil suits as an excuse to avoid accountability too?

Opposition accountability ?

What should they be accountable for ?

Those who are not in parliament, who should they account themselves to ?

If at all, your assswipe CSJ has never allowed civil suits to prevent him from calling a pot black as he sees it, and especially when we all know that the pot will always be black.

Unfortunately, the darlings that support Low and Chiam seems to believe they have accounted themselves by avoiding civil suits, without discovering that they have not been able to make any impact with the truth that they cannot speak.

It is simply too easy to avoid civil suits - simply not speak the truth, or bend the truth to make it less distinguishable.

Like mentioned in a previous thread, the onus is on the government to refute claims with clear information that disputes any claims. Mainly due to the fact that the(the govt) are the ones that are withholding all information.

If they want to sue, fine, first they should come clean and prove that they was libel involved.

If a citizen requests for information disclosure and the govt refuses, but sues instead, what kind of message does that send across? "That the govt is infallible and there is no way they should be questioned?" Its bullcrap.

The onus is on public officials to explain, and come up with the evidence, not sue.
Columns By Andrew PK Yap
Founder of www.casinogamblingprevention.com
Vote: [+/-] - Score: [ 14 ] - posted at 00:40:56 on 10/18/07 by Andrew PK Yap - Category: Columns

Originally posted by kramnave:

Govt lent Indo $5billion in 1998...when an idiot comes out and say govt corrupted 3 years later and inflates that sum by more than double..i think he deserves to be bankrupted...

Are you some sort of fortune teller? Adrian Lim's disciple? How you know what the real figure is when you try to find out, they slap you with the OSA.

Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:

The onus is on public officials to explain, and come up with the evidence, not sue.
Columns By Andrew PK Yap
Founder of www.casinogamblingprevention.com
Vote: [+/-] - Score: [ 14 ] - posted at 00:40:56 on 10/18/07 by Andrew PK Yap - Category: Columns

Thanks, couldn't remember where to dig it out from.

Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:

Are you some sort of fortune teller? Adrian Lim's disciple? How you know what the real figure is when you try to find out, they slap you with the OSA.

When Indo went into crisis, we were not the only one who lent, the Japs also lent and IMF went in to try to solve their problems. The amount we lent was widely publicised. If you have problems trusting figures reported then i suggest that you stop quoting any in future as well.

Originally posted by kramnave:

When Indo went into crisis, we were not the only one who lent, the Japs also lent and IMF went in to try to solve their problems. The amount we lent was widely publicised. If you have problems trusting figures reported then i suggest that you stop quoting any in future as well.

so , you are saying that Andrew and everyone in this world,
should believe in whatever is published, even if there is typo error or human error?

how intellectual.

let me put it in another way:

the people may have become apathetic about the political process because the opposition keeps sabotaging themselves..

now we have a shady character out there who claims to be the 'leader of the opposition' but can barely get enough votes to retain his deposit, intent on publicity stunts and getting himself arrested, playing victim and martyr...

when you slash yourself, and blame your parents for making you slash yourself, no one put a blade in your hands...

btw... you guys keep ranting on and on about democratic processes.. yet you deride and spit on the 66.6%

no matter what we say, it is a majority...

the 'uncontested' ones, don't blame those who actually turn up for the fight for being declared winners when the enemy doesn't turn up...

as much as i don't like the MIW, i don't like the sycophantic idiots sucking up to idiots in the opposition even more...

Originally posted by reddressman:

so , you are saying that Andrew and everyone in this world,
should believe in whatever is published, even if there is typo error or human error?

how intellectual.

I don't quite know how to respond to this question. Let's just say the $5billion was quoted many times in the media..Straits Times, Reuters, AP etc. 3 years later someone came out with an inflated figure. How he got that figure i got no idea. He had no way to back that inflated figure as well. No proof nothing. Lets just say that i prefer to believe government of Singapore, government of Indonesia, the media etc rather than someone who would just come out with a rash and baseless accusation 3 yrs later.

You can shut yourself from the world and trust your own intellectual capabilities but i prefer factual information.

Originally posted by the Bear:

let me put it in another way:

the people may have become apathetic about the political process because the opposition keeps sabotaging themselves..

now we have a shady character out there who claims to be the 'leader of the opposition' but can barely get enough votes to retain his deposit, intent on publicity stunts and getting himself arrested, playing victim and martyr...

when you slash yourself, and blame your parents for making you slash yourself, no one put a blade in your hands...

btw... you guys keep ranting on and on about democratic processes.. yet you deride and spit on the 66.6%

no matter what we say, it is a majority...

the 'uncontested' ones, don't blame those who actually turn up for the fight for being declared winners when the enemy doesn't turn up...

as much as i don't like the MIW, i don't like the sycophantic idiots sucking up to idiots in the opposition even more...

You keep missing the most relevant point too about our current state of divide in our political process which have caused many problems as posted by many here which going forward is not good for the future.

CSJ or the opposition may not be the angels that we agree but they are performing a certain function especially where people have failed to do do being more afraid for their own economic or material gains.

If we allow the government to use its power to keeping fixing CSJ or the opposition or the critics then we are not going to get better.

So please see the larger picture and do not become so fixated in wanting to attack CSJ like you did all these time in so many posts.

CSJ or the oppositions are not the government and they do not cause any problems to the people or the political renewal for our survival.

Whoever the party in power must be held answerable for their policies and actions which do not come across as benefiting the ordinary citizens or provide the greatest benefits of the greatest number which should be the basis of our governing system.

If you keep attacking CSJ as dished out by government main propaganda mechines or the oppositions or people with a view you will not improve our governance but will only make them more uncaring and ride roughshod over the people as has happened for too long.

You and people like you may be the ones who cause problems.

According to your postings your view mostly consisted of BEAR AND FOREBEAR without taking part in the rationality of issues from the larger perspective.

It is because we have people like you as Li Ao has put it no wonder our government keeps behaving in such a cavalier and uncaring cold and calculated manner towards the people as well as to the opposition. Catherine Lim not just Li Ao has basically said the same thing on this matter. Lately Dr. Wong Wee Nam said the same too that we are lacking in quality as a people and we need quality people if we want to have quality government.

TS obviously doesn't even know what is the definition of ldefamation....... Go do your research and study it thoroughly first before you sprout your nonsense in your post!

TS is trying to sound intellectual but the blatant lack of substance from his posts exposes his imbecility......

Originally posted by kramnave:

I don't quite know how to respond to this question. Let's just say the $5billion was quoted many times in the media..Straits Times, Reuters, AP etc. 3 years later someone came out with an inflated figure. How he got that figure i got no idea. He had no way to back that inflated figure as well. No proof nothing. Lets just say that i prefer to believe government of Singapore, government of Indonesia, the media etc rather than someone who would just come out with a rash and baseless accusation 3 yrs later.

You can shut yourself from the world and trust your own intellectual capabilities but i prefer factual information.

so, now I see what is your highly intellectual understanding of the word FACTs.

well done.

hey , even the usa got it wrong despite how bombastic their 'intelligence' is factually known to be.

a fact is not a fact until proven.

else, suffer the consequence as grave as 911.

Originally posted by :

TS obviously doesn't even know what is the definition of ldefamation....... Go do your research and study it thoroughly first before you sprout your nonsense in your post!

TS is trying to sound intellectual but the blatant lack of substance from his posts exposes his imbecility......

What then is your definition of use of civil libel or defamation law for exercising of hidden political agenda ?

Do you or do you not agree that our leaders are misusing civil libel for their own hidden political agenda of staying in power ?

Originally posted by reddressman:

so, now I see what is your highly intellectual understanding of the word FACTs.

well done.

hey , even the usa got it wrong despite how bombastic their 'intelligence' is factually known to be.

a fact is not a fact until proven.

else, suffer the consequence as grave as 911.

oh man..this is tiring..believe what you want man..maybe the government got it wrong and they lent US$12billion instead of US$5billion...maybe Chee was right, had evidence but prefers to be bankrupted...ok ?