more singaporeans in australia lately...
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Originally posted by fishbuff:
hello? u ever buy new HDB flat before?
u think CPF will loan u direct nowaday? and when u borrow from banks, u think it is so easy to default and stay?
if it is not reported in the ST news doesnt mean it doesnt exists.
Getting loan from CPF is no difficult at all, the reason some prefer private bank loans to CPF is because of the slightly high interest rate.
Singapore banks are very stringent on loan approval and the maximum loan amount home owner can take is 90% and they are seldom available unless you have a extremely good credit record.
In Australia I believe you can take up to 97% of your property valuation. which means if you want to buy a $1m property in australia, all you need is to have a good credit record and $30,000 in cash.
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Originally posted by TCH05:
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In Australia I believe you can take up to 97% of your property valuation. which means if you want to buy a $1m property in australia, all you need is to have a good credit record and $30,000 in cash.
Really?Oh My God!!I think just US can get near 100% loan.When u give near 100% loan,it is a sub prime already!!I dunt know oz also like this.
I quote in ''There are many Singaporeans in Oz lately'that few houses just foreclosed and sold by banks recently at half of the 2005 prices!!
2.Why?A drop of 5 % in property value will make the bank in loss,the sale price cant cover the loan.But in the down hill market,the realised price will be lower.
3.Review Oz now.
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I am sad people here first to look at who post the posting first before the postings.Do the materials inside the postings important than the poster?While your English is much better than me,does it mean your opinions is better than mine?
You ought to be sad... because after tooting so much of our horn, how can it be our progressive, world class educational system failed to make any dent on your inability to use english properly.
You know, if you actually did less cut and paste your english might improve?
And might i remind you "here first to look at who post the posting first before the postings" is not only a disaster of language that only you can make, it's a really funny statement.
Unfortunately considering how your arguments are always blown to bits, your opponents not only have a better grasp of the language, but of logic and reason as well.
And you know what is even more funny? Your poor english renders you unable to understand your opponents replies. The number of times you have misread, or answered totally out of point even the most simple posts is almost too many to count. In the latest example, you asked FMYK a question that she had already answered in her previous post, and that was funny because it was right there and totally obvious.
Now if you can't even read the normal english of your opponents properly, there is little confidence in your ability to properly understand the journalistic language in the articles you rabidly cut and paste.
2.I dunt think u MUST get to know one place by staying there.I have seen sone forumers here dunt know the Oz city they stay facing water shortage.
You don't need to "MUST get to know" (another example of lionnoisy english as it is broken) a place by staying there.
However if you are going to make very big statements about any place, you must understand that there will be people who ACTUALLY are there and right there and then in that situtation who you must contend with. And unfortunately they are far more convincing then your articles.
The reason is simple, articles are written not to be mundane, because it is about "news", not "no-news". Hence all you get are the highlights of the picture and not the big picture. The people in the cities your mentioned read the same articles as you, not to mention they actually see the other things beyond the articles.
Simply put, when we had SARS we knew we were facing a problem. But at no one point did we think it would do us in. It was something we had to deal with and live with.
And Roonoisy (your australian counterpart) can quote all the SARS in Singapore articles he wants to paint the situtation there as dangerous and unsituable, but ultimately the average Singaporean knows that it's just a problem, and not an insurmountable one. Life still goes on.
Why? Because they know the place better then you. They know that articles aside, there is still a life worth living and totally possible despite the problems. And mind you these are people who have seen both sides of the coin, both Singapore and Australia.
The difference is this: other countries have the guts to face up to their problems as things to be faced and solved. The US deals with tornados, Australia with droughts and what have you not. In Singapore, our problems, such as a brain drain of top local talent, the uncertain replacement of them with FT, is dealt with as if it didn't even exist or given some spin.
And unfortunately unlike water, a brain drain is harder to reverse. You can patch the holes here and there but unless the actual rot is taken care of it will not be solved.
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Originally posted by fishbuff:
i dont argue with kids. especially with young adult that still stay with parents and play counterstrike on pc bought by their mom.what for argue? in 2 days from now, who will even notice this thread. big picture, man. big picture.
hahaha, are you Singaporean? have you bought HDB flat before? whether TCH05 is smart or not is immaterial, he got his facts correct. If this is your final words on this argument and you don't accept the fact, you are the kids playing counterstrike no matter how old you are. Learn to grow up.
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I just can't understand why a unity educational system can produce such a diversity in singaporeans comprehension ability.
Mr Lion just accept the fact that our homeland is not perfect, it is the reports from our pap's propaganda machines that seemingly provide you with a more beautiful picture of the problems we are facing.
While on the other hand, the OZ media are independent and hence had to find ways to cultivate stories and blunders the OZ administrate had did.
So blindly accepting the facts from the media without comprehending and comparing the real facts only illustrate the depth of your thoughts. Not the mention your english that My T-rex had mention.
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Originally posted by justcooler:
I just can't understand why a unity educational system can produce such a diversity in singaporeans comprehension ability.
Mr Lion just accept the fact that our homeland is not perfect, it is the reports from our pap's propaganda machines that seemingly provide you with a more beautiful picture of the problems we are facing.
While on the other hand, the OZ media are independent and hence had to find ways to cultivate stories and blunders the OZ administrate had did.
So blindly accepting the facts from the media without comprehending and comparing the real facts only illustrate the depth of your thoughts. Not the mention your english that My T-rex had mention.
I think a forum should allow people to say what they want to say as long there are facts behind what they are saying.Calling Singapore media as PAP's propaganda machines is also not accurate because we all know that our government no longer has a stronghold on limiting information in the present multi media internet age and it will be stupid of our government to think they can hide problems aways from its people.
Plus many of the articles in today's newspaper are not pro PAP either, and I believe most discussion in this forums comes from the the so-call "propaganda media" isnt it?
Does it also means that independent media are always clean and truthful about what they publish?
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Originally posted by TCH05:
I think a forum should allow people to say what they want to say as long there are facts behind what they are saying.Calling Singapore media as PAP's propaganda machines is also not accurate because we all know that our government no longer has a stronghold on limiting information in the present multi media internet age and it will be stupid of our government to think they can hide problems aways from its people.
Plus many of the articles in today's newspaper are not pro PAP either, and I believe most discussion in this forums comes from the the so-call "propaganda media" isnt it?
Does it also means that independent media are always clean and truthful about what they publish?
I believe some of the local parents are not happy with full time NS given to their children. Some of the parents went to send their son to other countries in hope they never came back to Spore. Korean mother often go to Canada to give birth to their son in hope of giving Canadian citizenship. The policy of reservist is that once a person came back to Spore, he still need to fulfill his reservist obligation. -
Originally posted by TCH05:
I think a forum should allow people to say what they want to say as long there are facts behind what they are saying.Calling Singapore media as PAP's propaganda machines is also not accurate because we all know that our government no longer has a stronghold on limiting information in the present multi media internet age and it will be stupid of our government to think they can hide problems aways from its people.
Plus many of the articles in today's newspaper are not pro PAP either, and I believe most discussion in this forums comes from the the so-call "propaganda media" isnt it?
Does it also means that independent media are always clean and truthful about what they publish?
Problem with Lion is that he/she shoots her mouth off without considering other facts. Lion does not live in Australia yet he/she wishes to argue with Singaporeans who do LIVE overseas while he/she have been using newspaper reports as the holy grail of facts - the last question would apply towards Lion.
There is a difference between fact finding and the croaking of the frog in the well. Unfortunately Lion would fit perfectly in the latter not the former.
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Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
You ought to be sad... because after tooting so much of our horn, how can it be our progressive, world class educational system failed to make any dent on your inability to use english properly.
You know, if you actually did less cut and paste your english might improve?
And might i remind you "here first to look at who post the posting first before the postings" is not only a disaster of language that only you can make, it's a really funny statement.
Unfortunately considering how your arguments are always blown to bits, your opponents not only have a better grasp of the language, but of logic and reason as well.
And you know what is even more funny? Your poor english renders you unable to understand your opponents replies. The number of times you have misread, or answered totally out of point even the most simple posts is almost too many to count. In the latest example, you asked FMYK a question that she had already answered in her previous post, and that was funny because it was right there and totally obvious.
Now if you can't even read the normal english of your opponents properly, there is little confidence in your ability to properly understand the journalistic language in the articles you rabidly cut and paste.
You don't need to "MUST get to know" (another example of lionnoisy english as it is broken) a place by staying there.
However if you are going to make very big statements about any place, you must understand that there will be people who ACTUALLY are there and right there and then in that situtation who you must contend with. And unfortunately they are far more convincing then your articles.
The reason is simple, articles are written not to be mundane, because it is about "news", not "no-news". Hence all you get are the highlights of the picture and not the big picture. The people in the cities your mentioned read the same articles as you, not to mention they actually see the other things beyond the articles.
Simply put, when we had SARS we knew we were facing a problem. But at no one point did we think it would do us in. It was something we had to deal with and live with.
And Roonoisy (your australian counterpart) can quote all the SARS in Singapore articles he wants to paint the situtation there as dangerous and unsituable, but ultimately the average Singaporean knows that it's just a problem, and not an insurmountable one. Life still goes on.
Why? Because they know the place better then you. They know that articles aside, there is still a life worth living and totally possible despite the problems. And mind you these are people who have seen both sides of the coin, both Singapore and Australia.
The difference is this: other countries have the guts to face up to their problems as things to be faced and solved. The US deals with tornados, Australia with droughts and what have you not. In Singapore, our problems, such as a brain drain of top local talent, the uncertain replacement of them with FT, is dealt with as if it didn't even exist or given some spin.
And unfortunately unlike water, a brain drain is harder to reverse. You can patch the holes here and there but unless the actual rot is taken care of it will not be solved.
Thanks spending so much time reply to me.
I am not here to pull u guys back from emgriating out of SG.Why I tell u so many another side of OZ?I find too many people in this forum,if not all,give me the images of Oz like heaven.
But i find another Oz after i spend some times desk top fact findings.u can say most news are bad news,thats why i can read from the media.
I find the following problems in Oz gavaman---
corruptions----very serious corruptions.u can looking for some Inquiry reports about police corruptions.Recently,a deputy police commissioner has been charged,etc.
Almost all the major platforms of Oz Defense force CANNOT WORK!!Not to mention Oz pay high prices for Vietnam era choppers etc.The funny thing is the US chopper supplier will sue Oz if she cancel the deal.Then now u know why LKY need 1st Class Honor Law grad work for gavaman.
Drugs-----mind your kids.I am wandering why so far ONLY one forumer here tell us there is drug problem there,when there are many now staying in Oz.If u already grow up,u can stay away from drug.But how is your kid?U think u put them in a good school will be fine?Drug problems is related to corrurption.u will ask me to produce evidence which i dunt have,of course.
Shooting------read the police web site of almost all cities then u can find gun shoots are way of life in Oz.How many population in a city ?Few million,honey?U will tell urself,''it is ok i stay in this area.''
2.While u paint a rosy picture of Oz,can i say somethings here,supportered by facts?u can say i just see the tree,but not the jungles.
Ok oK.I must admit there are many welfare and benefits for new born baby to old folks.But tell me honorously,who DO PAY for the bills?
U lah,my dear fren.Or your dear children and grand children.
Can the welfare and benefits compensate the down sides whcih will become worse?
3.Dunt take my postings here as anti--oz.Take it as alternative views,not so common views on Oz.U seldom hear from your fren and relatives.Rememebr,those already in Oz,even your family members, may not tell u the whole pictures for many reasons.u have to assess and make up your mind.
4.If u say i shall shut my mouth up because i do not stay in OZ,then can u ask CSJ not to post articles from Tom Dick and Harry ,which blacken SG??
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Originally posted by will4:
I believe some of the local parents are not happy with full time NS given to their children. Some of the parents went to send their son to other countries in hope they never came back to Spore. Korean mother often go to Canada to give birth to their son in hope of giving Canadian citizenship. The policy of reservist is that once a person came back to Spore, he still need to fulfill his reservist obligation.This problem has long settled among the common and average Singaporean. Our sons when grow up serve NS. period.
There are some from well to do families, are still thinking of using their money to get out, especially many parents who managed to escape NS in the early days.
There are also the PR holders, love to stay in Singapore but dont want to get their children involved in NS.
If we are not firm with this NS obligation, then the rich would be paying for the average singapore to serve. NO CAN DO.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
This problem has long settled among the common and average Singaporean. Our sons when grow up serve NS. period.
There are some from well to do families, are still thinking of using their money to get out, especially many parents who managed to escape NS in the early days.
There are also the PR holders, love to stay in Singapore but dont want to get their children involved in NS.
If we are not firm with this NS obligation, then the rich would be paying for the average singapore to serve. NO CAN DO.
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
Thanks spending so much time reply to me.
I am not here to pull u guys back from emgriating out of SG.Why I tell u so many another side of OZ?I find too many people in this forum,if not all,give me the images of Oz like heaven.
But i find another Oz after i spend some times desk top fact findings.u can say most news are bad news,thats why i can read from the media.
I find the following problems in Oz gavaman---
corruptions----very serious corruptions.u can looking for some Inquiry reports about police corruptions.Recently,a deputy police commissioner has been charged,etc.
Almost all the major platforms of Oz Defense force CANNOT WORK!!Not to mention Oz pay high prices for Vietnam era choppers etc.The funny thing is the US chopper supplier will sue Oz if she cancel the deal.Then now u know why LKY need 1st Class Honor Law grad work for gavaman.
Drugs-----mind your kids.I am wandering why so far ONLY one forumer here tell us there is drug problem there,when there are many now staying in Oz.If u already grow up,u can stay away from drug.But how is your kid?U think u put them in a good school will be fine?Drug problems is related to corrurption.u will ask me to produce evidence which i dunt have,of course.
Shooting------read the police web site of almost all cities then u can find gun shoots are way of life in Oz.How many population in a city ?Few million,honey?U will tell urself,''it is ok i stay in this area.''
2.While u paint a rosy picture of Oz,can i say somethings here,supportered by facts?u can say i just see the tree,but not the jungles.
Ok oK.I must admit there are many welfare and benefits for new born baby to old folks.But tell me honorously,who DO PAY for the bills?
U lah,my dear fren.Or your dear children and grand children.
Can the welfare and benefits compensate the down sides whcih will become worse?
3.Dunt take my postings here as anti--oz.Take it as alternative views,not so common views on Oz.U seldom hear from your fren and relatives.Rememebr,those already in Oz,even your family members, may not tell u the whole pictures for many reasons.u have to assess and make up your mind.
4.If u say i shall shut my mouth up because i do not stay in OZ,then can u ask CSJ not to post articles from Tom Dick and Harry ,which blacken SG??
the decision for all now is;
would u want to stay in singapore forever (24x48km), or take a chance overseas?
u only have 1 life! live it to the fullest.
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Originally posted by fishbuff:
the decision for all now is;
would u want to stay in singapore forever (24x48km), or take a chance overseas?
u only have 1 life! live it to the fullest.
The world is a global village.No matter Where U are,u just stay in ONE city!!Right.Does it matter to you the size of the city or country u are staying?u want people saying ''oh,u come from a big city/country!!''?
Every one have one's goals and tolerance level.I dunt mind people asking me''Singapore?Is it in Australia/China?''
Just stay in wherever u like!!
2.i dunt want my family staying in a good welfare and 101% free and democracy city,but
kids can buy drugs as easy as buying a Coke from 7--11!!Or every now and then,news reports guns shoot to a house in my city!!
3.I will be very stupid if i leave a city where gavaman full of resources----financially,political will,know how etc---to make my life better!!
4.Can u tell me which city can give you so many diversified jobs----services as well as manufacturing.Read www.sedb.com.sg lah.
u guys will tell FT fxxx off!!But does it sound protectionism which the western Economists tell us not to do??
5.Big country.big city,must come with many talents to compete with.The no. of jobs in any place is not a issue.The no of eligible candidate applying any particular job is most important.
BTW,how many pages of RECRUITS or alike in big cities in OZ?
6.This is the best time for Republic of Singapore since 1965.Short term problems will be overcome.U just look at GIC sold billions of assets in mid 2007 then u know u are in the right'' frigate'',small but powerful.Just do the right things at the right time,at most of the time.
I am looking forward to a much better time.
I go for quality,not quantity.
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fshbuff, I saw you posting a picture of yourself doing gardening a few days back and for some reason you have removed it.
Nice property you got there. May I know how far are you living away from the city? Did you intentionally flex your muscle when taking that picture?
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Originally posted by TCH05:
fshbuff, I saw you posting a picture of yourself doing gardening a few days back and for some reason you have removed it.
Nice property you got there. May I know how far are you living away from the city? Did you intentionally flex your muscle when taking that picture?
im staying 15km away from the cbd. driving to work in my old starlet.
i removed it coz i posted the pic in a moment of spur, not a proud boasting person in person, so i remove it.
im a strongman by training, not a bodybuilder. my muscles on the arms are side effects as i never do isolation exercises. my real muscles are my back, quads and glutes. can squat and deadlift 500lb and bench 300lb. if i want to pose, i will do the traditional double bicep pose.
not bad for an oracle certified IT geek eh? :D
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
The world is a global village.No matter Where U are,u just stay in ONE city!!Right.Does it matter to you the size of the city or country u are staying?u want people saying ''oh,u come from a big city/country!!''?
Every one have one's goals and tolerance level.I dunt mind people asking me''Singapore?Is it in Australia/China?''
Just stay in wherever u like!!
2.i dunt want my family staying in a good welfare and 101% free and democracy city,but
kids can buy drugs as easy as buying a Coke from 7--11!!Or every now and then,news reports guns shoot to a house in my city!!
3.I will be very stupid if i leave a city where gavaman full of resources----financially,political will,know how etc---to make my life better!!
4.Can u tell me which city can give you so many diversified jobs----services as well as manufacturing.Read www.sedb.com.sg lah.
u guys will tell FT fxxx off!!But does it sound protectionism which the western Economists tell us not to do??
5.Big country.big city,must come with many talents to compete with.The no. of jobs in any place is not a issue.The no of eligible candidate applying any particular job is most important.
BTW,how many pages of RECRUITS or alike in big cities in OZ?
6.This is the best time for Republic of Singapore since 1965.Short term problems will be overcome.U just look at GIC sold billions of assets in mid 2007 then u know u are in the right'' frigate'',small but powerful.Just do the right things at the right time,at most of the time.
I am looking forward to a much better time.
I go for quality,not quantity.
lol! i give up arguing with u. :D
but the majority of the young singaporeans arent that myopic. that is good news.
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Originally posted by fishbuff:
im staying 15km away from the cbd. driving to work in my old starlet.
i removed it coz i posted the pic in a moment of spur, not a proud boasting person in person, so i remove it.
im a strongman by training, not a bodybuilder. my muscles on the arms are side effects as i never do isolation exercises. my real muscles are my back, quads and glutes. can squat and deadlift 500lb and bench 300lb. if i want to pose, i will do the traditional double bicep pose.
not bad for an oracle certified IT geek eh? :D
seen some of your youtube videos..you are huge....I am sure you can walk into any of the aussie bikers bar and no one will come bother you...you should join the rugby league in australia if you have the speed...haha./
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Originally posted by TCH05:
seen some of your youtube videos..you are huge....I am sure you can walk into any of the aussie bikers bar and no one will come bother you...you should join the rugby league in australia if you have the speed...haha./
1.85m and 120kg here. but my brother, uncle and cousin are much taller than me.
was planning to come back to SG for the strongman prelim 2008 but still waiting for the govt letter. damn, without it, i cannot justify my flight back to sg just to attend the prelim.
my aussie colleague did say that he was surprised to see a chinese of my size here.
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Yawn... the difference is this:
Do you want to take your own destiny into your own hands and learn to make your own life or do you want to live in a place which spoonfeeds you your path and exacts a cost from you for it?
Lionnoisy cannot understand the main problem is this: The kind of people that our Government WANTS to retain... the creative, talented people are exactly the kind that cannot be spoonfed by the system. They would so much rather brave the "dangers" of other countries (crime, drugs and the like) and live a real life with their own choice, and as it goes many have and have not regretted their decision.
Who said going to Australia would solve everything? Will there be downsides? Of course... but can Australia give a lot of things Singapore as it now stands cannot?
CERTAINLY.
And for many that's more then worth it.
Last I checked in Singapore you still can get beaten up and chopped for no reason by parang. (just ask any NSF policeman what they come across in 2 years)
There still are drug problems and there are places in our tiny island that are not safe at night. (Ask any CNB officer if they think their job is ever finished)
We still get crimes and murders and accidents enough to fill the New Paper.
So "alternate" all the views you want, but as it stands most people who do their homework see that Australia still more then a viable option. Which is exactly why the people here paint a "rosy" picture. It's not a "rosy" picture as it is a real picture of what the TYPICAL migrant in Australia eventually becomes.
Did the Australian govt. point a gun to the head of the Singaporeans in there to report a rosy picture back? If it was really as "alternative" as Lionnoisy cranks it out to be, there would be an uproar by now... but as it stands the tide's still going the other way.
So at the end of the day, whatever Lionnoisy posts... what reality is really saying back to him is:
"So what?"
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Almost all the major platforms of Oz Defense force CANNOT WORK!!Not to mention Oz pay high prices for Vietnam era choppers etc.The funny thing is the US chopper supplier will sue Oz if she cancel the deal.Then now u know why LKY need 1st Class Honor Law grad work for gavaman.
Almost all the major posts of Lionnoisy english CANNOT WORK!! Not to mention Sing pay high prices for proper english education. The funny thing is the Lionnoisy will not improve his english even if after he post so much. Then now u know why pple need proper english to make proper arguments in here.
Lol, if you people in here see Lionnoisy's track record in military nuts, which is an unbroken record of defeats... he's kinda hard to take seriously.
Here's a clue Lionnoisy... instead of cutting and pasting reports written by journalists with highly charged political adgendas... try going to this webpage called http://www.strategypage.com/ in there is where REAL soldiers and experts from all over the world talk about their military. There is a forum on Australia and her military and try spreading your ideas of an ineffective, unworkable ADF in there.
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Maybe Lionnoisy doesn't know but army equipment/vehicles can be modified . Alot of countries modify old war machines or weaponry with their special specifications including Singapore. What's the use of people purchasing a vehicle that has known weaknesses?
The ADF have their own problems but they have been involved in real arm conflicts. They have the experience of dealing in real wars , not some exercise drill. Australian soldiers have came back in coffins during this decade because they engaged in frontline combat in a real war.
If you dare insult the ADF in Australia , you probably get a tongue lashing . They are proud of their war veterans and soldiers. Everyone knows the sacrifices they make.
Even when Singapore first started looking at her defence, they had to invite the Israelis in to help out. Why? Because Israel has been engaged in real conflict against bigger odds and they have stood their ground so far. They were experienced while Singapore was not and still remains unexperienced in real war on a mass scale.
Winning a war is not about technological prowess only. It is also about strategy that comes from experience.
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Then do u mean army with experience will a war?
Then ,every army will be defeated in the first war!!who will win?
Funny!Dunt side with the great Oz ADF.
They may be really big one to one.But tell me what happen to the major platforms I have mentioned in this forums for more than 1 year.
NO PLATFORMS CAN WORK PROPERLY.
M-113 took 10 years to upgrade and still works in progress.etc etc
2.
The gangsters dunt care police lah.
Dylan Welch
February 19, 2008 - 4:54PMA luxury waterfront flat believed to be owned by a Hells Angels bikie in Sydney was searched by police this afternoon.
Detectives from the gangs squad arrested a large, well-built man, dressed in black jeans and a grey t-shirt and wearing white sneakers, in Pyrmont.
A blue Ford FPV GT sedan was also filmed and searched by police, while the muscled man, his hands cuffed behind his back, stood and watched.
A sticker on the rear window of the car, with South Australian plates, read: "Hells Angels North Crew".
Another sticker on the inside of the car read: "This is a Hells Angels vehicle. F*** with it and find out."
.....
3.The gangsters just above all..
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"NS for singaporeans, jobs for foreigners" as one graffiti stated in amk.
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NS is good,
It instill patriotism in those who had gone through it. And i believe all of us still recognise ourselves as singaporeans
But it is just that we cannot concord with changes in things, and most of it was a result of policies lay down by a self serving group of people.
That why we move to find a heaven for ourselves, but deep in our heart we hope to return to be with our relatives, friends, life styles, language, .. food
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NO PLATFORMS CAN WORK PROPERLY.
M-113 took 10 years to upgrade and still works in progress.etc etc
Yawn... if I remembered, we spent millions of dollars and over 20 years messing around with an 1950s era light tank with weak firepower, nonexistent armour and less mobility then tanks 4 TIMES its weight before deciding to spend another couple of million finally making the solution that was obvious all these years in getting a proper MBT that people have already been using for years.
In the meantime, several tankers were killed in accidents with this 1950s era light tank that could have been avoided with more modern designs.
And finally after spending millions of dollars, and 20 wasted years on keeping a vintage design... we finally decided to use them as scrap metal.