Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by Poh Ah Pak @ Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:40:27 +0800

Poh Ah Pak — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:40:27 +0800

No one on this earth is born equal.

Some are born healthy, some are born with disease.

Some are born good looking, some not.

But all should have equal rights and equal access to education, career, a future etc.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by drawer @ Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:37:24 +0800

drawer — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:37:24 +0800

I hope this defeat will come someday.I believe God is fair,although in this world,we are not born equal.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by Poh Ah Pak @ Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:27:16 +0800

Poh Ah Pak — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:27:16 +0800

I believe they live in their own fantasy world,drifting themselves further and further away from us and the reality.

I believe this to be true, since only in Singapore and only Singapore are ministers paid millions.

PAP regime really needs to wake up from their dream world.

66.6% keep on putting back to sleep.

They need to suffer a defeat to wake them up.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by drawer @ Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:25:21 +0800

drawer — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:25:21 +0800

Sad to hear your story…..There is a Western proverb saying:”Every man for himself”.But this only apply in a critical situation.Does our PAP leaders live in a life-threatening situation?

I believe they live in their own fantasy world,drifting themselves further and further away from us and the reality.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by 4sg @ Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:02:31 +0800

4sg — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:02:31 +0800

Not only that they are like businessmen but worse. I see the PAP MP as heartless and cruel men and women.

My family case is like this-

Couple of years ago, my HDB flat received the en-block notice. It so happen that my sister has her name as co-owner with my parent. Few weeks prior to the HDB notice, she got married. Her husband lives in a condominium, so automatically HDB treats my family as rich.

No new flat subsidy was granted to my family. This being the case, my family has to fork out more for the new flat than the rest of my neighbours’.

Both my parents are in their 80s, with my father coming to 90. My father has not been working since he retired at 58.

I went to HDB to appeal. A total waste of time. The people working in HDB are, what Robert called iron-rice bowl robots,- heartless and deaf. The officer told my family to sell my house on the open market and make a big bundle of profit. Easy for him to say.

When I got an agent to market my flat, I can’t even get a single offer, even when I was willing to lower my price to HDB compensation’s. Why? Because, I not be getting the subsidy, the person who purchases from me will also not be getting a subsidy. In such case, who would buy from me on the open market? Especially, when there are flood of offers besides mine.

I appeal to my MP. What he said really infuriated me. He called my case a green-eye syndrome. In other words, that my family is jealous of others getting subsidy and mine don’t. I pointed out to him my family poor income and my not working and aged parents. He shook my hands, patted me on my back and sent my off.

The longer I live in this country, the more I feel that this country has no heart and soul.

I forget to add this point. If I have sold my HDB flat on the open market, regardless whether I made profit, lost or even at HDB compensate rate, I would be treated as being 'consuming the subsidy of the new flat'. Regardless of whether we have or have not made a profit.

The funny thing is that HDB has all along made it very clear to my family that there would not be no subsidy granted to my family. So where this 'consuming the subsidy of the new flat'?

Everything don't make any sense to me at all.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by Poh Ah Pak @ Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:07:12 +0800

Poh Ah Pak — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:07:12 +0800

PAP really has to go.

I have no doubt whatsoever on that.

Their style of running a country like a business, really sucks and drains the life out of you.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by drawer @ Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:01:36 +0800

drawer — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:01:36 +0800

I believe if time can turn back,those ppl who voted LKY n his party PAP will vote other politicians and parties instead.

Reason?They now know that LKY is not such a good leader after all.They now know that LKY can screw up so many things when he gets old and his “Never-retired attitude” bring disaster to this nation.Just like Mao Ze Tong did to Communist China in the past.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by Reddressman. @ Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:48:54 +0800

Reddressman. — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:48:54 +0800

the way i see things,

although I must say sg is super bombastic,

i cannot in anyway not consider migrating as an alternative to retirement. This means, its more likely I will not migrate but it will always be a backup plan waiting to be used because there is stil l substantial chance I will have to.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by Poh Ah Pak @ Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:39:31 +0800

Poh Ah Pak — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:39:31 +0800

With a rigid education system, propaganda media and regimental lifestyle and regime supporting FTs, combined with a hostile political environment, all creativity, innovation spirit and business acumen has been killed off.

A lifeless and souless society.

Lee Kuan Yew should be proud of himself.

All those with the resources are leaving this island for good.

They are tired of Lee Kuan Yew and his PAP ruling clique.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by bluelantern @ Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:24:32 +0800

bluelantern — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:24:32 +0800

Another variant we could ask was, would there be more entrepreneurs without LKY? Some people said LKY managed to do the impossible - extinguishing the entrepreneurial spirit in Chinese.Arts and Innovation also cant seem to thrive under LKY rule despite many repeated attempts over decades to move up the economic value chain.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by onlooker123 @ Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:52:32 +0800

onlooker123 — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:52:32 +0800

So what is the solution?

If you were PM, what would you do?

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by robertteh @ Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:04:34 +0800

robertteh — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:04:34 +0800

According to some people, without LKY our share market will fall, property prices will fall and investors will run away.

Actually our market with LKY sticking around has fallen to the bottom. We will have more recessions than other countries. Our wages have fallen. There is a temporary recovery recently in the property and share market not because of his creativity or entrepreneurship but because pf world recovery with the rise of China and India.

Because of lack of economic restructuring to keep up with technology and practical knowledge applications and his he failure to understand motivation of people and how economy works our economy has fallen badly to the bottom since the 1970s.

It is aggravated by his continuing past policies during his time of over-charging and profiteering by the government on lands and all assets belonging to people through all kinds of hypocrisy creative accounting and legalistic wrangling.

So with him around for longer we will not be doing better but worse. If he has set up pro-progress and pro-people policies since 1970s we will not be seeing losses due to migration of our talents to other countries by the thousands.

We would have won the people's confidence for with lesser charges and fees we would have achieved greater competitiveness through knowledge applications by all.

His basic policies of promoting the elites and foreigners have hit bottom and failed to uplift the economy. He has basically run out of solutions.

The only way to him to run this country seems to be to take and suck from the people. That is selfish government and a selfish government cannot succeed in the long run.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by caleb_chiang @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:18:25 +0800

caleb_chiang — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:18:25 +0800

I guess it's time we need new blood...

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by TCH05 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:16:15 +0800

TCH05 — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:16:15 +0800

Originally posted by SpecOps87:

Face it...SG's Economic growth is largely due to domestic factors. Do we export lots of stuff? No...its due to rising property prices that we grow economically.Its simply moving money from one pocket into another. Real growth? Look at China, India. Enough said.

I guess you really have no clue about what you are saying.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by SpecOps87 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:14:18 +0800

SpecOps87 — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:14:18 +0800

Face it...SG's Economic growth is largely due to domestic factors. Do we export lots of stuff? No...its due to rising property prices that we grow economically.Its simply moving money from one pocket into another. Real growth? Look at China, India. Enough said.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by TCH05 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:11:48 +0800

TCH05 — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:11:48 +0800

Originally posted by HyperFocal:

... speaking of achieving more in life, I think there can be many variants to this question such as "Will costs of living be lower without LKY?" ...

I am sure if LKY did nothing as PM, the cost of living in Singapore will be lower, so will be our income, literacy rate, life expectancy. We might not even be singing majulah singapura.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by stupidissmart @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:02:01 +0800

stupidissmart — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:02:01 +0800

My point is, if u wanna comment, comment on something reasonable

In chinese, tis is call "事后英雄". After everything had become past, he described how he can be a hero or how he can do a better job then.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by HyperFocal @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:52:47 +0800

HyperFocal — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:52:47 +0800

Originally posted by stupidissmart:

I think the is a sweeping statement and is unfair

I can simply say tat all opposition parties r completely useless. If they r better than the opposition party now will be as strong as PAP. Look at america and tat is a better example than singapore. Similarly, I can also say u r completely useless. If u r better, than u will become bill gates and set up a good product tat can sell overseas and make billions for our economy. Then u can also conclude singaporean r lousy. Because if they r good, they will become damn rich, set up many companies with international brand, replace LKY long time ago with a better leader and singapore become the paradise of the world

U know just go behind, comment the others r lousy, then finding a better example to back up your argument is totally lame. U just have the benefit of hindsight and comment how others had failed, when during tat time nobody know wat is going to happen in future. U r living now. Tell me wat policies should we implement NOW not wat should we implement in the past. If I got the benefit of hindsight, I win 4D every week.

... if all that you have said is possible to do at present, we wouldn't all be just confined in here to air our views & objections...

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by stupidissmart @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:47:02 +0800

stupidissmart — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:47:02 +0800

I think the is a sweeping statement and is unfair

I can simply say tat all opposition parties r completely useless. If they r better than the opposition party now will be as strong as PAP. Look at america and tat is a better example than singapore. Similarly, I can also say u r completely useless. If u r better, than u will become bill gates and set up a good product tat can sell overseas and make billions for our economy. Then u can also conclude singaporean r lousy. Because if they r good, they will become damn rich, set up many companies with international brand, replace LKY long time ago with a better leader and singapore become the paradise of the world

U know just go behind, comment the others r lousy, then finding a better example to back up your argument is totally lame. U just have the benefit of hindsight and comment how others had failed, when during tat time nobody know wat is going to happen in future. U r living now. Tell me wat policies should we implement NOW not wat should we implement in the past. If I got the benefit of hindsight, I win 4D every week.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by Jamie Zawinski @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:44:10 +0800

Jamie Zawinski — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:44:10 +0800

Originally posted by eagle:

The main thing, I think, is not whether to question whether LKY should or should not have been there from the 1970s. This is something that cannot be changed, nor can it be repeated (another LKY, anyone?).

The more important question, I think, is

Can Singapore do better without LKY/PAP now?

in my opinion, sg can definitely do without PAP. we need a 2-party system ala the states. i see workers party's growth to be the alternative voice a healthy sign.

no, we cant do without LKY, who do u think is actually steering the ship now?

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by robertteh @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:36:30 +0800

robertteh — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:36:30 +0800

"Hello...since when all civil servants are over paid.....your statement is pretty sweeping here...

Back up with proof ..."

I would say that iron rice bowl or bill collector jobs have been over-glamorised in our civil service with every new recruits without proven track records of the elite groups enjoying super-speed promotions and regarded as CEOs comparable to Sim Wang Hoo who are only bureaucrat people who pass law and put up controls of all sorts to levy funds and use public monies to provide expenditures like happening in any clubs or management corporations.

Such iron rice bowl people have been wrongly treated as talents with ability to restructure our economy to world class standards or solve our many problems.

The fact is have they all these years done so and have they even been talented enough to lower citizens' burdens in paying everything from A to Z created by all the profiteering schemes to suck monies from them.

So under such conditions, the $400K - $600K salaries paid to top civil servants and $80K-$150K paid to middle executives like senior teachers or senior assistants in schools are therefor grossly overpaid.

Furthermore many civil servants are nowadays having lesser job scopes and responsibilities as compared with before with many traditional duties being taken off them due to more laws being passed to protect their own enclave.

Our Policemen nowadays do not have such major responsibilities like apprehending certain crimes happening with private estates because they have passed such duties to private security agencies or the management corporation.

Even in immigration offences or assaults the police men would come and take down particulars and would normally tell victims to be his own policemen and investigate the wrongs and file their own private summons on the excuse that these are not seizable offences.

If they say we need to restructure the economy to value-adding and technology or knowledge driven model, have they actually done that?

With only excuses they keep postponing solutions to problems.

marketing or inventions or innovations to be worth millions.

Propagandas and self-glorifications through the controlled media have resulted in many of us believing our leaders and top civil servants are that talented.

They cannot even solve certain urgent problems faced by people which lower-paid outsource private companies have been solving.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by HyperFocal @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:25:12 +0800

HyperFocal — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:25:12 +0800

... speaking of achieving more in life, I think there can be many variants to this question such as "Will costs of living be lower without LKY?" ...

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by TCH05 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:17:57 +0800

TCH05 — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:17:57 +0800

maybe you should also ask yourself

Could you have achieve more in your life if you spend less time in this forum talking about LKY.

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by HyperFocal @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:59:31 +0800

HyperFocal — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:59:31 +0800

... I been looking at this thread's title, and felt that there was something wrong in it...

... finally I've realized what it is...

... on the contrary, I feel people should be asking; "Could LKY have done better without Singaporeans?" Indeed, if the people have not supported him, or voted for his party, would he be where he is today & all that money... ?

Could Spore have done better without LKY from the 1970s? replied by phil30k @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:44:21 +0800

phil30k — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:44:21 +0800

Dear Robert,

I sympathize with your feelings. I keep certain things in mind when I look at these things.

Firstly, running a government and a country isn't easy. I'd assume that most times we'd try to look for other models and policies to follow rather then shape our own because we may not have sufficient confidence and expertise to shape our own.

We're also constrained by having to choose policies from other countries that may be fundamentally different from our own and such policies may not have their intended effect or have unplanned effects. Some would include the unexpected social impacts of economic policies.

You brought up many good examples of policies that can be improved. Do you have suggestions for policies to address these issues?

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