Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by Fingolfin_Noldor @ Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:44:52 +0800

Fingolfin_Noldor — Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:44:52 +0800

Stevenson: Wait? Too many Lawyers in Parliament? Parliament is a law making body, and you are saying too many lawyers in parliament in a liberal democracy? How do you make laws when you don't know how to make one? If by anything, our MPs are probably hopelessly ignorant about the laws of this country and God knows how they make sure policy is line with the law.

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by stupidissmart @ Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:50:33 +0800

stupidissmart — Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:50:33 +0800

I am not a hypocrite, I feel his reply is strange and I stick to it. If u think he make sense then ok lor...

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by robertteh @ Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:12:17 +0800

robertteh — Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:12:17 +0800

Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:

I'm a victim of grave abuses from people in power in Singapore with access to telepathic person(s). They have friends here too(in Jakarta). All abuses are to convince people I'm mentally ill to cover their grave evil. Telepathy is not a far off fiction. It's a fact. I've realized I'm fighting a 12 year old. And a country ruled by thugs.

It is possible telepathetic person(s) could be part of the persecutors' arsenals to subdue people. I pray for your release from these evils in the name of Jesus.

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by Miracles&Prophecies @ Sun, 20 Jul 2008 07:56:35 +0800

Miracles&Prophecies — Sun, 20 Jul 2008 07:56:35 +0800

I'm a victim of grave abuses from people in power in Singapore with access to telepathic person(s). They have friends here too(in Jakarta). All abuses are to convince people I'm mentally ill to cover their grave evil. Telepathy is not a far off fiction. It's a fact. I've realized I'm fighting a 12 year old. And a country ruled by thugs.

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by stupidissmart @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:58:38 +0800

stupidissmart — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:58:38 +0800

Sorry... My bad... Let me rephrase

Huh ? A 12 years old cyber agent go to eternal hope, confront u, gravely abuse u while u r trying to convince people there r people with telepathic abilities and all the while u r in indonesia ?!?!?

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by Miracles&Prophecies @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:08:06 +0800

Miracles&Prophecies — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:08:06 +0800

Originally posted by stupidissmart:

Huh ? A 12 years old cyber agent go to eternal hope, confront u, gravely abuse u while u r trying to convince people u have telepathic abilities and all the while u r in indonesia ?!?!?

Let me guess that was your stupid side which enticed you to write those sentences? I don't even understand what you wrote? From your own fantasy?

You couldn't even understand simple sentences.

When did I ever convince anyone I had telepathic abilities because I don't. You are a liar. And a bad one at it.

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by stupidissmart @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:19:32 +0800

stupidissmart — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:19:32 +0800

However it will be quite a different response from the people if the Government or LKY keeps using propagandas to persist in doing those things that were found to be wrong as pointed out by many forumers here e.g. taxing and hoarding monies withholding provisions of basic services people are entitled to and claim superficial success.

Every people in tis world feel tat they r taxed too much. U felt singapore r being taxed too much but how does it hold with respect to the world ?

wrongful acts like the NKF or ineffective transport policies or shin corp or UBS losses.

NKF is a private organisation, shin corp did lose money... sadly.. and UBS is a long term investment... lets give it 2 years to see wat will happen.

Read again the thread "Minimalist Taxing and Maximalist Facilitator Government is what citizens want" for more information about people's wishes and aspirations and their feedbacks on the many positive and proactive alternative systems to avoid further government's wrong doings.

ok let me see see...

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by stupidissmart @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:12:30 +0800

stupidissmart — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:12:30 +0800

Huh ? A 12 years old cyber agent go to eternal hope, confront u, gravely abuse u while u r trying to convince people u have telepathic abilities and all the while u r in indonesia ?!?!?

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by Miracles&Prophecies @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 14:19:07 +0800

Miracles&Prophecies — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 14:19:07 +0800

Originally posted by robertteh:

............

Is there a justification for ministers to send cyber-agents to come to slam people using hidden unequal selfish political power and probably using publicly paid servants to do so.

hey not everyone's fooled.

Some govt paid cyber agents are already here. I suspect a few name. For good reason. One even try to upset me because he didn't want me to tell my story here in Sgforum. But rather than confront me in speaker corner he prefered to confront me in eternal hope.

This is the story which he didn't like me written here

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by robertteh @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:38:33 +0800

robertteh — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:38:33 +0800

Originally posted by stupidissmart:

One thing we got to know is tat life is simply getting harder and harder. Now china had open up and so does lots of cheap developing countries. Tis gives singapore and many developed countries intense pressure. Even the so called favourite example switzerland is facing problems as well. The question now tat has to come about is wat should we do ?

One thing I see from the gov here is they appoint a group of economists, even some head economist some years ago to give suggestions for singapore to survive. The suggested policies r taken one by one. They also find a panel of some road traffic experts from australia to teach how to make public transport more attractive to people. Suggestions such as bus lane timing and improved MRT timing had also changed one by one. They even seek a panel to remake east coast park (which people laugh at their name changing to the same one) and some suggestions and they implement it one by one.

It is easy to criticise the gov for wat they r doing, especially if the events had passed and it is proved to have failed. We want to see if the opposition r better than the "elites" and can come out with better economic policies for singapore. How to earn more money for singapore in the long run ? Afterall, we wanted to have better lives in the end.

According to many bible experts, the bible tell its believers to seperate the state from the church. Don't mix religion with politics

No body is saying government has not done many right things. No body is saying LKY has not done anything good things.

However it will be quite a different response from the people if the Government or LKY keeps using propagandas to persist in doing those things that were found to be wrong as pointed out by many forumers here e.g. taxing and hoarding monies withholding provisions of basic services people are entitled to and claim superficial success.

It will be a different response from citizens if government or LKY still cannot change and tries to call themselves first-class and refusing to take heed of their wrongful acts like the NKF or ineffective transport policies or shin corp or UBS losses.

The most serious problem today is despite paying ministers millions of salaries they are still seen as yes-men aping the wrongful policies of LKY and unable to give us values for monies like restructuring to a mass participative practical knowledge application economy.

What the people want now is to restructure the economy to one tapping on the mass talents in every field not constant propangas as repeated by some naive unthinking self-satisfied individuals like Deerhunters and Gazelle only to perpetuate past mistakes and to repeat past success failing to acknowledge people's wishes and aspirations.

Read again the thread "Minimalist Taxing and Maximalist Facilitator Government is what citizens want" for more information about people's wishes and aspirations and their feedbacks on the many positive and proactive alternative systems to avoid further government's wrong doings.

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by gasband @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:27:24 +0800

gasband — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:27:24 +0800

Originally posted by stupidissmart:

One thing we got to know is tat life is simply getting harder and harder. Now china had open up and so does lots of cheap developing countries. Tis gives singapore and many developed countries intense pressure. Even the so called favourite example switzerland is facing problems as well. The question now tat has to come about is wat should we do ?

One thing I see from the gov here is they appoint a group of economists, even some head economist some years ago to give suggestions for singapore to survive. The suggested policies r taken one by one. They also find a panel of some road traffic experts from australia to teach how to make public transport more attractive to people. Suggestions such as bus lane timing and improved MRT timing had also changed one by one. They even seek a panel to remake east coast park (which people laugh at their name changing to the same one) and some suggestions and they implement it one by one.

It is easy to criticise the gov for wat they r doing, especially if the events had passed and it is proved to have failed. We want to see if the opposition r better than the "elites" and can come out with better economic policies for singapore. How to earn more money for singapore in the long run ? Afterall, we wanted to have better lives in the end.

According to many bible experts, the bible tell its believers to seperate the state from the church. Don't mix religion with politics

Hey I agree with you, Alot of times, it is easier to criticise on the hindside. And I agree that politics should not mix with religion or anything else for that matter. The word politics already told us, it is not just outright common sense we are talking about. What is right may not be right. There is alot of rolling and dealing and wheeling behind the scenes. So well yeah, we all just want better lives at the end of the day,

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by stupidissmart @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:40:01 +0800

stupidissmart — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:40:01 +0800

It is precisely because he has run dry of ideas from his taxing and profiteering system that the whole economy has lost the right kind of entrepreneurs or economic competitiveness that he has no choice but to be forced finally to resort to IR or keep quiet about so many prostitutes coming here to operate in our red light districts.

One thing we got to know is tat life is simply getting harder and harder. Now china had open up and so does lots of cheap developing countries. Tis gives singapore and many developed countries intense pressure. Even the so called favourite example switzerland is facing problems as well. The question now tat has to come about is wat should we do ?

One thing I see from the gov here is they appoint a group of economists, even some head economist some years ago to give suggestions for singapore to survive. The suggested policies r taken one by one. They also find a panel of some road traffic experts from australia to teach how to make public transport more attractive to people. Suggestions such as bus lane timing and improved MRT timing had also changed one by one. They even seek a panel to remake east coast park (which people laugh at their name changing to the same one) and some suggestions and they implement it one by one.

It is easy to criticise the gov for wat they r doing, especially if the events had passed and it is proved to have failed. We want to see if the opposition r better than the "elites" and can come out with better economic policies for singapore. How to earn more money for singapore in the long run ? Afterall, we wanted to have better lives in the end.

According to many bible experts, the bible tell its believers to seperate the state from the church. Don't mix religion with politics

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by robertteh @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:11:29 +0800

robertteh — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:11:29 +0800

Originally posted by Stevenson101:

Personally i believe fully in what you have to say here.

Yes, the PAP government has done very well in the development of Singapore and i agree with much of their long tern plans (Building the IR, F1 racetrack , attracting investments for solar panel constructions, bioscience and the 3D industry) which would have otherwise be blocked in parliament and take forever to start in a liberal democracy.

Some of you may disagree with me, that is your right but i believe LKY has done well for this country and deserves the celebrity status he has now. I disagree with how he handles certain things but can agree with the reasons on why he had to do so.

The current government are implementing ridiculous laws to protect themselves and i'm begining to think that if i want to get the police to come stop a robbery or murder i'd have to tell them i'm staging a protest to get any worthy response. I often shudder to think how easy it is for me to stage terrorist attacks considering how ineffective our police force is becoming.

Also, the recent Mas Selemat escape is an immense scandal, it proves how fragile our security is and how ill prepared to deal with people who simply have a better survivor instinct. Worst of all, WKS did not have to take any responsibility for allowing the escape and failing to recapture him. Those of all that has been through NS would understand that when a unit is slack, it means the entire command structure has a problem and it always starts from the top

All that said however, i'm still against a liberal democracy and free media. Of course, my definition of free media would probably be somewhere near the extreme of "say what you want and to hell with the consequences". A lot of times, the Truth hurts and is difficult to stomach and accomplishes nothing but a moral responsibility.

I dislike how liberal democracy allows mostly lawyers to get in Parliament, how the system itself only allows reactive policies and proactive policies are always shut down.
Jimmy Carter (US President) have voiced out the problem and M.King Hubbert ( a geoscientist) have predicted that the US would have to be an importer of oil by 1974 but in the end the Americans have realised they have done nothing to prepare for Peak Oil and instead have created a population that consumes more energy per person than anywhere in the world. Their electrical grids are not even prepared to deal with switching to EV support.

America practices supposedly free media but can we really say that? How many networks have portrayed the Iraq War from the Iraqis perspective? Who do you think gives their funding?

Why i feel the China Communist Party would probably be able to survive far better than India? Because their leadership is led by scientists who could understand the cold hard numbers to avoid disasters, not by lawyers who know what to say to make the people happy but have no freaking idea how to plan ahead.

I'm 25, previously i purposely throw my vote to the opposition even though i had no freaking idea what the opposition starts for. Now i realised how stupid i am to throw my vote in such an irresponsible manner. I do not want an Anwar or Chee Soon Juan to be be anywhere near the government.

If the opposition wants respect, let them get people who can argue as well as Chiam See Tong and Slyvia Lim. I believe the people of Singapore is slowly maturing to "might" be able to handle a more liberal democracy and soon the opposition would be able to fill their ranks with far more competent membership. But i'm crossing my fingers until then.

I cannot agree with the assumptions underlying your statement that MM Lee has done the right things to restructure the economy or bring about a more just and equitable society for all to work as a united country.

It is precisely because he has run dry of ideas from his taxing and profiteering system that the whole economy has lost the right kind of entrepreneurs or economic competitiveness that he has no choice but to be forced finally to resort to IR or keep quiet about so many prostitutes coming here to operate in our red light districts.

Please read the alternative system of government under the thread "Minimalist Taxing Maximalist Facilitator Government is what we want" for more information about what he could have done to bring about such a society.

As for your view that China now has better engineer/scientist leaders who are better able to provide many solutions to its immense problems, I fully agree with you on this observation. If we want to produce a more united country while bringing about competitiveness, we should not keep putting up so many lawyers to run our country.

Lawyers by their training are protectionistic and litigious and tend to run the country treating their citizens as potential trouble-makers or adversaries to be controlled constantly with all sorts of laws and enforcements.

Too many lawyers among our ministers and MPs will produce eventually a litigious society with avoiding of responsibilities through manipulations of laws rather than solving problems.

We are being divided now as a country all because of too much doings and manipulating by the lawyers to get what they want to protect themselves and their own selfish agendas instead of serving the people. A house divided is a house in doom. This is what the lawyers will do because they perceive people as adversaries and pass all kinds of laws on theory "X" instead of theory "Y" approach which finally negative creativity and entrepreneurship running down the mass practical knowledge applications by the people which can only be created based on theory "Y".

The whole government has to be overhauled with more scientists, technologists and entrepreneurs who know the real fizz and functions in every aspect of the economy and who will build up a whole infrastructure to tap on people's practical talents in every field and use them for successful team building and not so much fighting among the people as we are seeing now for years.

Only when we place truly knowledgeable people who know how to listen and put up the right plans in all the right departments will we succeed.

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by Stevenson101 @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:06:34 +0800

Stevenson101 — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:06:34 +0800

I apologize for my mean streak on the reply

But i respect that robertteh has made the effort to do a long post of his views and opinions and chose to express mine in the same way even through i do not exactly agree.

But i get very worked up when i see sarcastic 1 liners in reply.

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by Stevenson101 @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:53:06 +0800

Stevenson101 — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:53:06 +0800

So what do you suggest?

Stage illegal protests or just cry and moan on the internet?

I expect people to be proactive, giving opposition in a meaningful and constructive way. Not behave in a reactive manner.

I expect people to be able to attack the policies and not the minister in charge because that's what the PAP government wants you to do.

It's a lot better than passing sarcastic remarks and quoting from the bible no ?

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by the Bear @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:46:11 +0800

the Bear — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:46:11 +0800

so.... you expect anyone to just sit there and kena hammered?

even Jesus drove the moneylenders away...

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by Stevenson101 @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:29:14 +0800

Stevenson101 — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:29:14 +0800

Personally i believe fully in what you have to say here.

Yes, the PAP government has done very well in the development of Singapore and i agree with much of their long tern plans (Building the IR, F1 racetrack , attracting investments for solar panel constructions, bioscience and the 3D industry) which would have otherwise be blocked in parliament and take forever to start in a liberal democracy.

Some of you may disagree with me, that is your right but i believe LKY has done well for this country and deserves the celebrity status he has now. I disagree with how he handles certain things but can agree with the reasons on why he had to do so.

The current government are implementing ridiculous laws to protect themselves and i'm begining to think that if i want to get the police to come stop a robbery or murder i'd have to tell them i'm staging a protest to get any worthy response. I often shudder to think how easy it is for me to stage terrorist attacks considering how ineffective our police force is becoming.

Also, the recent Mas Selemat escape is an immense scandal, it proves how fragile our security is and how ill prepared to deal with people who simply have a better survivor instinct. Worst of all, WKS did not have to take any responsibility for allowing the escape and failing to recapture him. Those of all that has been through NS would understand that when a unit is slack, it means the entire command structure has a problem and it always starts from the top

All that said however, i'm still against a liberal democracy and free media. Of course, my definition of free media would probably be somewhere near the extreme of "say what you want and to hell with the consequences". A lot of times, the Truth hurts and is difficult to stomach and accomplishes nothing but a moral responsibility.

I dislike how liberal democracy allows mostly lawyers to get in Parliament, how the system itself only allows reactive policies and proactive policies are always shut down.
Jimmy Carter (US President) have voiced out the problem and M.King Hubbert ( a geoscientist) have predicted that the US would have to be an importer of oil by 1974 but in the end the Americans have realised they have done nothing to prepare for Peak Oil and instead have created a population that consumes more energy per person than anywhere in the world. Their electrical grids are not even prepared to deal with switching to EV support.

America practices supposedly free media but can we really say that? How many networks have portrayed the Iraq War from the Iraqis perspective? Who do you think gives their funding?

Why i feel the China Communist Party would probably be able to survive far better than India? Because their leadership is led by scientists who could understand the cold hard numbers to avoid disasters, not by lawyers who know what to say to make the people happy but have no freaking idea how to plan ahead.

I'm 25, previously i purposely throw my vote to the opposition even though i had no freaking idea what the opposition starts for. Now i realised how stupid i am to throw my vote in such an irresponsible manner. I do not want an Anwar or Chee Soon Juan to be be anywhere near the government.

If the opposition wants respect, let them get people who can argue as well as Chiam See Tong and Slyvia Lim. I believe the people of Singapore is slowly maturing to "might" be able to handle a more liberal democracy and soon the opposition would be able to fill their ranks with far more competent membership. But i'm crossing my fingers until then.

Gov always says it's entitled to reply (slam) critics in net replied by robertteh @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:36:28 +0800

robertteh — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:36:28 +0800

Very often we will today see the frequent attempts by the government to use cover agents to slam or counter critics for speaking up on wrongfulness of governing policies with the excuse that the government should be entitled to the same freedoms to reply as the critics.

Let us examine whether the government has been prevented by any critics from their freedoms to reply to criticisms?

To begin with, freedom of speech in the ordinary business of running a country or conducting businesses of an economy is more or less the totality of communication being exercised through publishing news and information by the broadcast and print media.

Has the PAP not dominated such broadcast and print media? Has it not many government websites to purvey all that it wants people to believe in whatever they may be doings to stay in power and control in the running of the country?

What has the people done to deprive the PAP or government it must complain in internet blogging that it should be entitled to the same freedom to internet posting in discussing over government policies over the net.

Being the government it is its duty to answer to any complaints or feedbacks to serve the citizens.

In fact they can the civil defamation laws as the trump cards to sue anyone whom they regard as threats even on people as civic as Mr. Brown. Administratively they have even greater power to deal with critics like dismissing or transferring civil servants speaking out of line or not seen as acting in concert with their own interest.

They would sue anyone in their own appointed courts for even the slightest innuendos as happened in Tang Liang Hong case with civil laws narrowly interpreted as libellous for remarks made against them even in the course of electioneering without giving their oppositions defence such as fair comment or public interest.

It is therefore quite incorrect to adopt the underlying assumption that government is not given the equal opportunity or freedoms of replies to criticisms in the media or internet.

The plain fact is the reverse is true. The PAP and PAP government has been enjoying more-than-equal and often one-sided freedom to slam critics' views over all media without giving the critics the chance to reply.

With such total domination of the media it is to be seen that the government is not satisfied and it is still trying to take away the remaining freedoms whatever left from the people. It is finding new way and means and excuses to use cover agents to slam critics even critics like Mr. Brown who is just a citizen with views concerning governing of the country.

The real issue here today is whether PAP and PAP government should be given such "more equal than equal" right or privilege over all media to practise such wrong doing against the citizens in the manner of speech.

So weighing both the freedoms of speech or expressions on both sides there is no need to be so overly concerned that when critics speak up there must be opportunities for PAP and PAP government to rebut or reply.

If MM Lee does not use such defamation suits so often against his political opponents will we today be running out of political leaders of calibre?

For every good and bad policy there is always a price to pay. If we want to practise a "no free lunch" system of government, we may end up having a greedy money-grabbing government on the other side of the equation.

It is quite wrong for the government to control the media or pass draconian laws just for their own purposes without looking at the other side of the equation what we stand to lose.

It does not make sense that we allow a one-sided policy like "no free lunch" or "meritocracy" to dominate our political system for so long and today we as a people are suffering from naivety of accepting such propaganda.

It is the duty of all citizens to speak the truths against wrongfulness of government without fear or favor in whatever forums or occasions to put us back on proper path of growth and vibrancy as Hong Kong people are now enjoying.

Just look at Deerhunter. He obviously has been sent here (not of his own natural volition) to slam at citizens' views and opinions with vulgarities and name callings.

Is the Freedom of Speech balanced with complete control of PAP and PAP government of the public media leaving the internet now as the only available free venues to express their views and opinions ?

Is there a justification for ministers to send cyber-agents to come to slam people using hidden unequal selfish political power and probably using publicly paid servants to do so.

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