Dear All,

This is inreference that our youngs are becoming more aligned to the Chinese ethnicity. I appeal to you to support my motion. Singapore's success is in our openness, opportunities for all and is and seen as cosmopolitan.

Our racial mixture of Chinese, Indian, Malay and Eurasian has open many doors - politically, culturally and economically. Our success in investing in China, India and many parts of the world is in many ways due to our ability to bring the best of what we have in this racial mix.

Singapore's distinct advantage lies in NOT being a Chinese state. Our advantage is in being a place for everyone regardless of race, language or religion. Our tolerance for differences must continue and in fact enhanced in our social and cultural pysche.

The day that Singapore becomes a Chinese oriented state whether in culture or outlook, is the day we will loose our comparative advantage. We will just merely become a normal city - ie the same as Hong Kong Shanghai and Beijing.

Why then should investors or foreigner want to come here to stay?

Just look at Hong Kong. As soon as it becomes a Chinese State after 1997 and adopted policies to turn themselves more to China, their distinct advantage was lost. Investors and foreigners prefer Shanghai and Hong Kong is bypassed.

We must bring ourselves and our youngs to see ourselves as Singaporeans and not Chinese. We will never be Chinese whether ethnically or culturally, Our Lingua franca is English and our mind set caters to the world and NOT to China.

China can be the greatest power but Singaporeans especially "Chinese" Singaporeans will never be the Chinese up north. We must NOT be or we will lose many of our best when the rest are alienated and felt out of place.

It is still not too late to reverse the trend. Our youngs should be educated to embrace the world and accept diversity with ability to fit in to cultural diversity and not ethnocentrism.

Please support my motion. Thank you.
---------------------------
I like to suggest that we remove racial distinction from our identity cards and any official documents including resumes and job applications.

Is Shanghai more Chinese than Hong Kong?

i dunno whether to laugh or not

Originally posted by duotiga83:

i dunno whether to laugh or not

I find nothing to laugh at.
What Relevation suggests is that we should be in essence a Singaporean and not ethnically a Chinese, an Indian, or a Malay.

I see nothing wrong with Chinese being Chinese, Tamil being Tamil... while the state remains... Singapore, neither East nor West. It is diplomatically, economically, and pragmatically advantageous to us right, they say? However the individual needs to identify himself or herself with a deeper culture, to base his or her morals or ethics upon. With population 70% chinese, it may "seem" like a Chinese state then, if majority embrace Chinese culture. But only in private sphere mah. However we are so unique we can never be a Chinese state. Different story if the ONLY super-power is China and U.S. suddenly disappears lah. And Malaysia and Indonesia also disappear. Unlikely right?

Originally posted by ppinkpponk:

I see nothing wrong with Chinese being Chinese, Tamil being Tamil... while the state remains... Singapore, neither East nor West. It is diplomatically, economically, and pragmatically advantageous to us right, they say? However the individual needs to identify himself or herself with a deeper culture, to base his or her morals or ethics upon. With population 70% chinese, it may "seem" like a Chinese state then, if majority embrace Chinese culture. But only in private sphere mah. However we are so unique we can never be a Chinese state. Different story if the ONLY super-power is China and U.S. suddenly disappears lah. And Malaysia and Indonesia also disappear. Unlikely right?

IMHO, ideally there should be no racial differentiation in Singapore. We can remain as Chinese, Malays, Indians or Eurasians, but ultimately we must recognize ourselves as ONE race, one kind of people, one nation. If there is such racial differentiation, there is bound to be differing amounts of benefits given to each race, and we cannot avoid comparisons between the race [e.g. the article in ST about less MALAY kids passing Math]. When something like this happens, superficially nothing's wrong, but you can never know what the people around you are thinking.

We CAN identify ourselves without the racial segregation. Our culture, Singapore's culture, is a blended one. A new culture, perhaps?

Erm, just my five cents worth. Correct moi if I'm wrong anywhere.....

think the National University of Singapore is becoming a chinese institute of higher education....

like i've always said. my nationality and my ethnicity is singaporean.

we have only had 30 years worth of culture, that's only 1 generation's worth, not much to base a national identity on.

i think singapore will never be a chinese state nor muslim state nor indian etc.... the government won't be so stupid to do such meaningless things, but maybe will see themselves as a "profitable" state....

Such a brainless topic...*sigh Goes to show how mature young Singaporeans nowadays are.

you just love painting everyone in the same colors do you?

This is a "worldpeace" topic.

Originally posted by relevation:

Dear All,

This is inreference that our youngs are becoming more aligned to the Chinese ethnicity. I appeal to you to support my motion. Singapore's success is in our openness, opportunities for all and is and seen as cosmopolitan.

Our racial mixture of Chinese, Indian, Malay and Eurasian has open many doors - politically, culturally and economically. Our success in investing in China, India and many parts of the world is in many ways due to our ability to bring the best of what we have in this racial mix.

Singapore's distinct advantage lies in NOT being a Chinese state. Our advantage is in being a place for everyone regardless of race, language or religion. Our tolerance for differences must continue and in fact enhanced in our social and cultural pysche.

The day that Singapore becomes a Chinese oriented state whether in culture or outlook, is the day we will loose our comparative advantage. We will just merely become a normal city - ie the same as Hong Kong Shanghai and Beijing.

Why then should investors or foreigner want to come here to stay?

Just look at Hong Kong. As soon as it becomes a Chinese State after 1997 and adopted policies to turn themselves more to China, their distinct advantage was lost. Investors and foreigners prefer Shanghai and Hong Kong is bypassed.

We must bring ourselves and our youngs to see ourselves as Singaporeans and not Chinese. We will never be Chinese whether ethnically or culturally, Our Lingua franca is English and our mind set caters to the world and NOT to China.

China can be the greatest power but Singaporeans especially "Chinese" Singaporeans will never be the Chinese up north. We must NOT be or we will lose many of our best when the rest are alienated and felt out of place.

It is still not too late to reverse the trend. Our youngs should be educated to embrace the world and accept diversity with ability to fit in to cultural diversity and not ethnocentrism.

Please support my motion. Thank you.
---------------------------
I like to suggest that we remove racial distinction from our identity cards and any official documents including resumes and job applications.

There seem to be some interlocking issues that are mashed together and being addressed in a confused manner.

While Singapore is recognised to have a majority of its population being ethnically Chinese, and with the Government advocating the mastering of the 'mother tongue' for the ECONOMIC benefits that can be derived by associating Singapore closer to China - it is quite different to the example of Singapore ever becoming like Hong Kong RETURNING to China, and be a State of China.

Firstly, it is an IMPOSSIBILITY to be even considered due to the geo-political reality that exist.

Secondly, it is domestically not viable for the Singapore Ruling Party ever to allow its own SUPREMACY to be subjected to any other political party.

Worst still, to be subjected to its historical arch rival - the Chinese Communist Party.

However, if the topic is being defined as Singaporean Chinese pursuing its goal of pure rejuvenation of Chinese Culture for the purpose of invigorating the values into the Younger Chinese, then the picture will take on a totally different perspective.

Should one object to the pursuit of Chinese Purity in Singapore ?

It will depend largely on the support from the Ruling Party, as promoting Chinese Culture can also be suddenly viewed as Chinese Chauvinism, and one can be subjected to the REGULATORY THREAT from the all encompassing Internal Security Act.

The entire exercise of bringing up Chinese Culture, and to reinvigorate the ethnicity of the various ethnic groups in Singapore, seems to be similar to the teaching of Traditional Thinking such as Confucianism, with the ultimate demand for the Traditional Respect towards Authority, and the Subordination of the Individual Demand to that of the Community.

There is always the POLITICAL Effect that can only be cynically viewed as benefitting the status quo to the advantage of the Ruling Party.

Originally posted by Atobe:

There seem to be some interlocking issues that are mashed together and being addressed in a confused manner.

While Singapore is recognised to have a majority of its population being ethnically Chinese, and with the Government advocating the mastering of the 'mother tongue' for the ECONOMIC benefits that can be derived by associating Singapore closer to China - it is quite different to the example of Singapore ever becoming like Hong Kong RETURNING to China, and be a State of China.

Firstly, it is an IMPOSSIBILITY to be even considered due to the geo-political reality that exist.

Secondly, it is domestically not viable for the Singapore Ruling Party ever to allow its own SUPREMACY to be subjected to any other political party.

Worst still, to be subjected to its historical arch rival - the Chinese Communist Party.

However, if the topic is being defined as Singaporean Chinese pursuing its goal of pure rejuvenation of Chinese Culture for the purpose of invigorating the values into the Younger Chinese, then the picture will take on a totally different perspective.

Should one object to the pursuit of Chinese Purity in Singapore ?

It will depend largely on the support from the Ruling Party, as promoting Chinese Culture can also be suddenly viewed as Chinese Chauvinism, and one can be subjected to the REGULATORY THREAT from the all encompassing Internal Security Act.

The entire exercise of bringing up Chinese Culture, and to reinvigorate the ethnicity of the various ethnic groups in Singapore, seems to be similar to the teaching of Traditional Thinking such as Confucianism, with the ultimate demand for the Traditional Respect towards Authority, and the Subordination of the Individual Demand to that of the Community.

There is always the POLITICAL Effect that can only be cynically viewed as benefitting the status quo to the advantage of the Ruling Party.

Dear Atobe,

Thank you for your response. I do agree that I may have kind of mesh a few topics together and in a way kind of confused what exactly I am trying to say.

Ultimately this motion is raised to bring awareness of the danger that our youngs have become more aware of the "Chinese ethnicity" amongst us in the Chinese community. Being a Singaporean of Chinese origin, I am uncomfortable when some young Singaporeans and even some of my peers found the need to be more align with the Chinese ethnicity.

This is probably because of the rise of China with its economic opportunities and if you read yesterday's paper, China is now our major importer ( ie we export the most to China now).

So what I was trying to put forward is that we should not deal with China or the world in projecting the Chineseness of ourselves or becoming more aware of the Chinese ethnicity among us. Rather we should deal with China as a Singaporean which is where our strength lies.

I illustrate this by showing Hong Kong as an example. That is because Hong Kong lost its uniqueness by becoming a more Chinese rather than keeping its historical advantage (eg. English Language, projecting internationalism etc). These advantages were since lost when HKG was transferred to China's authority in 1997. Therefore Shanghai - being the de-facto Chinese city vis -avis HKG is more competitive when benchmark in a Chinese standard.

So in short, I am trying to say that by learning Chinese and being more Chinese or even more aware of the Chinese ethnicity; are NOT necessarily putting us in a competitive edge when we deal with China.

Also this is a danger when we forget that we have sensitivities among our compatroits ie Singaporean Malays, Eurasians and Indians. Also in danger of losing ourselves as the uniqueness of being Singaporean when we stress the Chineseness in us.

In conclusion, I like to put forward the awareness that in our pursuit to deal with China and learning the Chinese language, we need to drop the ethnicity and separate that from our psyche. We should never be proud to be Chinese because of China's success. Rather we should be proud that we are Singaporeans first and foremost.

Ultimately we are no longer the original Chinese but rather now a Singaporean!

Lets us not forget that.

Thanks

Bah, ethnics? nationality? Original chinese?These are but systems created by man to organize, make sense of our world.

I have no problems reconciling being singaporean and chinese, these two concepts are not contradictary, if anything, I think it is good to actually EMPHASISE our diversity, but it is also equally imperative to make sure that there is no EXCLUSION.

To make all of us into one bland soup of Singaporean, put on the national uniform of articifally created and bent according to profit "culture" and reject our heritage, is a sad move indeed.

Orginal chinese? We may not be much like "orginal" (define orginal in the first place, as if that mattered anything) chinese in china, believe me, but I believe that our foundations, and current directions, culture are deeply entwined in our respective ethnic backgrounds, and we should embrace them and work with them, not dissolve them into one confirmist notion of false harmony.

There is no harmony in a monotexture artifical nation of induced culture, true, harmony is coexisting and prospering in our difference.

Hence forth, I call to reject Revelations' proposal as an inadequate, and knee-jerk reaction to an issue that is far more complex then he proposes.

Dear Relevation,

From your post, I am not too sure if I can see any need for the concern of the desire of the younger generation trying to master their own mother tongue to a "high level of perfection" than what is being practised now.

Whether it is a Malay trying to master the Malay Culture or Language, or that of an Indian youngster working hard to perfect the practise of his ethnic tongue, or even an Eurasian working at the mother tongue of his own origin - Spanish, Chinese, English, German, Portuguesse, or lastly if a Chinese kid is enthusiastic in perfecting his knowledge in Chinese Culture and Language - it is far better then the present situation of Singaporeans without a culture or language that identify ourselves as Singaporean.

How can we be proud of ourselves, when as Chinese we can hardly speak Mandarin - nor any of the dialects - Hokkien, Cantonese, Teochew, Hakka, Foochow, Hainanese - in any manner that allow sensible expression with any other Chinese from any part of the Globe ? We are Singaporean, and we are Chinese. Yet we speak neither English nor Chinese with any degree of perfection. So what or where is our identity ?

Similary, the same can be said of a Singaporean Malay, who cannot communicate with his own ethnic cousin from Indonesia or Malayia or Brunei; and a Singapore Indian finding difficulty to communicate with his cousin from his own dialect or ethnic group from India.

What is the image of Singaporean, who has no mastery of the English Language, nor the mastery of the Culture or Language of one's own origin ?

A French is proud of his language and culture, so is a German, or an Italian, or a Dutch, or a Spanish - despite their acceptance being termed as Europeans.

Each has a mastery of his own Culture and Language, and contribute to the richness of Europe.

What can Singaporeans be proud of ? The Chinese can hardly speak his own dialect well, let alone Mandarin; and worse still, the typical YOUNG Singaporean Chinese will hardly speak nor understand any Malay, and definitely not Tamil or Hindi.

Similarly, the Younger Singaporean Eurasian, Singaporean Malay and Singaporean Indian can hardly understand the cultures and languages of his fellow Singaporeans - let alone have a mastery of his own culture and language.

Can we genuinely be proud of 'Singlish' being the tongue of Singaporeans, with its accompanying Culture of Imperfection ?

'Singlish' is a TWISTED FORM of the Chinese Language that is spoken in ENGLISH but in the manner that Chinese sentences are being constructed - as when one ask another "You Good or Not ? " , which is how the same is asked in Chinese as "Ni hau bu hau ?"

It is not English - and it is definitely not Chinese as it is spoken in English - and the only unfortunate term to describe it is that it is a 'bastardised' form of both languages that hardly befits Singaporeans with it being called 'Singlish' .

Each time I hear a parent scolding a child in public, I cringe at the loud use of 'Singlish' used by the parent - "I tell you don't like this, but you don't listen. Why, why ? You stupid is it ? You don't want to listen is it ? You hear or not ? "

While we do not expect Singaporean to speak perfect Queen's English, spoken in the manner that is spoken by SM LKY or the Chief Justice, perhaps Singaporeans can speak with a minimum standard of English similar to our TV presenters ?

The Image of Singapore is that of a country that treats everyone fairly, regardless of race, language or religion, with every diverse racial and ethnic groups living in harmony.

The diversity of Singaporean ethnicity, culture and language is the image of Singapore that allow each different groups to flourish richly.

A melting pot can exist to merge all the ethnicity together that can merge the various cultures.

However, to merge all the languages to form a "NEW LANGUAGE" will be quite a challenge.

The best way to melt into a pot, is to have the full appreciation and understanding the implications of the diversities before trying to melt everything into a mix and mash.

Without understanding how each food ingredient can contribute to the flavor and tastes in a common pot, too many cooks working together - without mastery of his own style and that of his counterpart - can certainly spoil the soup.

If the Young decide to diligently master the culture and language to perfection, it should be encouraged; as it will be useless to have a half hearted approach as in any enterprise.

Such efforts need not be executed in the form of chauvinism, but can be pursued as one will pursue perfection in art or engineering excellence.

Dear Atobe,

Looks like you have a logical and coherent arguement that is hard to argue against. Well thought of and persausive. I have to say I concur with your points and arguements.

I suppose Singaporeans will continue to grow and maintain the maturity in this aspect. I am glad that my motion have attracted some attention and glad that we have thoughtful Singaporeans like you in this forum.

I am encouraged.

Thank you.

Originally posted by relevation:

Dear Atobe,

Looks like you have a logical and coherent arguement that is hard to argue against. Well thought of and persausive. I have to say I concur with your points and arguements.

I suppose Singaporeans will continue to grow and maintain the maturity in this aspect. I am glad that my motion have attracted some attention and glad that we have thoughtful Singaporeans like you in this forum.

I am encouraged.

Thank you.

can anyone tell me which part of this would feel funny to you?

Dear All,

This is inreference that our youngs are becoming more aligned to the Chinese ethnicity. I appeal to you to support my motion. Singapore's success is in our openness, opportunities for all and is and seen as cosmopolitan.

Our racial mixture of Chinese, Indian, Malay and Eurasian has open many doors - politically, culturally and economically. Our success in investing in China, India and many parts of the world is in many ways due to our ability to bring the best of what we have in this racial mix.

Singapore's distinct advantage lies in NOT being a Chinese state. Our advantage is in being a place for everyone regardless of race, language or religion. Our tolerance for differences must continue and in fact enhanced in our social and cultural pysche.

The day that Singapore becomes a Chinese oriented state whether in culture or outlook, is the day we will loose our comparative advantage. We will just merely become a normal city - ie the same as Hong Kong Shanghai and Beijing.

Why then should investors or foreigner want to come here to stay?

Just look at Hong Kong. As soon as it becomes a Chinese State after 1997 and adopted policies to turn themselves more to China, their distinct advantage was lost. Investors and foreigners prefer Shanghai and Hong Kong is bypassed.

[quote][b]We must bring ourselves and our youngs to see ourselves as Singaporeans and not Chinese. We will never be Chinese whether ethnically or culturally, Our Lingua franca is English and our mind set caters to the world and NOT to China.

China can be the greatest power but Singaporeans especially "Chinese" Singaporeans will never be the Chinese up north. We must NOT be or we will lose many of our best when the rest are alienated and felt out of place.

It is still not too late to reverse the trend. Our youngs should be educated to embrace the world and accept diversity with ability to fit in to cultural diversity and not ethnocentrism.

Please support my motion. Thank you

[/b][/quote]
Hey mate, what the **** are you babbling about? What the hell is your point?

What is the image of Singaporean, who has no mastery of the English Language, nor the mastery of the Culture or Language of one's own origin ?

Its because of the local education system, there is too much shit to do and so little time. Students here are jacks of all trades, but master of only some... and that some does not include good mother tongue command.

IMHO, ideally there should be no racial differentiation in Singapore. We can remain as Chinese, Malays, Indians or Eurasians, but ultimately we must recognize ourselves as ONE race, one kind of people, one nation. If there is such racial differentiation, there is bound to be differing amounts of benefits given to each race, and we cannot avoid comparisons between the race [e.g. the article in ST about less MALAY kids passing Math]. When something like this happens, superficially nothing's wrong, but you can never know what the people around you are thinking.

We CAN identify ourselves without the racial segregation. Our culture, Singapore's culture, is a blended one. A new culture, perhaps?

In order to have one culture, you need to have one race. Either by conflict of by peaceful decades of genetic enhancements. The last 2000 years have been spent trying to achieve silly old fashioned utopian ideals, its time for a great leap forward.

You only have me as your hope to rectify that. Hopefully I will unite not just small countries like Singapore, but the entire world with my genetics programme. The bond of flesh is strongest, it transcends years of education in some white university... it is stronger than training, it lasts longer than friendship... hell the bond of flesh defines friendship here. I will harness the bonds of flesh to unite us as humans, just be patient. Even if I can't do it, I will set down the plans for another to do so when i become nothing.

we have only had 30 years worth of culture, that's only 1 generation's worth, not much to base a national identity on.

That is correct, everything takes time, so you people shouldn't rush it. Rome was not built in a day... or something like that.

think the National University of Singapore is becoming a chinese institute of higher education....

Yeah its crazy. In fact the % of graduates in the population is appalling.

However we are so unique we can never be a Chinese state + OTHER COMMENTS ABOUT CHINA AND SINGAPOREAN CHINESE

Oh you Singaporean Chinese people will side with the Chinese when things like the: China Space Programme are successful, or if China defeats the white man American in something. You will rejoice because of your common bond of flesh.... and in that moment, ideas of national boundaries will cease to exist... only in a moment like that. Human beings are such hypocrites. I'm one too, even though i am an abomination, i rejoice because people envy my dual culture, being part of 5000 year old civilisations and great explorers and imperialists that run in my tainted blood. And siding with white americans when they push their weight in the world as a symbol of Western power, oh yes, every white man rejoices along with the American because of the bond of flesh.The point is: We rejoice and band together when there is something to be proud about... something to be superior in... and when we have something in common.

Originally posted by relevation:

Please support my motion. Thank you.

What a joke that any one that naive would write such article.Did u saw how US police dept ID Michael Jackson on his recent mug-shot after arrest for alleged child-molestation ?
Race: B

So why is free-dom, race-sensity US of A doing that ?

So why, after 200yrs of democracy and over 3 decades of civil-rights movement in US, we still see LA riots in 1991 and black-vs-whites issues ?

Race has been, and will be the flashpoint and cornerstone of any civilisation. Even for every existence of this Republic is very much due to race issue.

Let's face it. You can raise any "motion" you like, ultimately, the truth only arrives if your "motion" brings betterment for all.

Give u 2 classic e.g of how different treatment of ethnic Chinese in this region results in very very different outcome for their adopted land: Try comparing the ethnic Chinese of Thailand and Indonesia.

One prosper and was able to keep and adapt to Thai society.
The other, ostracized, their culture outlawed and persecuted for decades until recently.

Moral of the story ?
It is NOT the race, stupid, it is your attitude.

Race has been, and will be the flashpoint and cornerstone of any civilisation. Even for every existence of this Republic is very much due to race issue.

Like I said, just be patient, when I gain enough power I will try to rectify it.

Originally posted by men_@_arms:

Like I said, just be patient, when I gain enough power I will try to rectify it.

?how? make every race screw each other? so that we'll only have one race left?

Originally posted by men_@_arms:

Like I said, just be patient, when I gain enough power I will try to rectify it.

Rectify ? What kinda stupid statement is that ?
Someone must hv his state of mind unscrewed.

Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:

make every race screw each other? so that we'll only have one race left?

of course, that is part of nature evolution and propagation of life.
Current theory favours 'out-of-Africa' where the origins of modern man where DNA traced to. Like I said, it depends on atttitude towards origin and race. Problem is, human remains the only living mammal that actively exterminate one another and I don't understand some skew-headed pple can't celebrate the diversity of life and humankind.

One-race concept is a race to the end, biologically speaking.
Life only flourish in diversity and challenge. That is why certain civilisation withers, and some expand and domainate.

No no no! I am not that insane yet. I am NOT talking about extermination, although that may be plan B... but lets not even talk about that... racial genocide is awful and immoral even for me.

If I can strive to gain power, or lay down my ideas. I think a global genetics programme could make a 1 race. Ofcourse the programme would only have to implemented for a few years, so that we get at least 1 generation of what I like to call "Universal Humans", prohibiting pure bloods to have children without genetic modification ofcourse, until they die of old age. ( I am still formulating a plan by studying the political rankings of governments and the united nations)

But I am confused. The reason I want to do this is because humanity has had conflics because of race for the past 2000 years, although I am not immortal god, I would like to change that, think about it? No more possibility of conflict over racial lines for the next 2000 years? I would fight for that. I am also personally spun on to do this because I feel rejected by people here because of my race... and I have a desire to be of the same race as you people. I do this plan with the hopes that future people like me won't suffer the same pain and heartache... and loneliness.

Yet even if I were to do it without violence, I would still be destroying diversity. And that I suppose, would be a greater crime than Hitler's or Saddam's. I am further confused because I see some people happy with diversity.

I am confused and scared of what I may do.