HEy guys,understand that police officers in the Special Operations Command are issued with revolvers even when responding to riots. Is it practical to issue a firearm with only 5 rounds of ammunition storage capacity in a environment where there may be hundreds or thousands of rioters?Not forgetting the fact that the rioters might snatch their sidearm and turn it against them,even though the weapon may have a retention and recovery system. Besides this...issuing a weapon wif a mere 5 round capacity when the need arises is almost no difference.Reloading of a revolver takes a longer time to reload, compared to the ease of ejecting and slipping in a new magazine for a semi-auto.

Btw,does the SAF issue pistols on real world ops?Read from an earlier post that WO's,Officers and PS above will get equipped with a pistol.Any idea of the loadout? Also..6SIR has equipped troopers of PS and above who are known as Force Commanders with pistols in a thigh rig too.Any comments from anyone in 6SIR to share mroe about this?

Originally posted by SpecOps87:

HEy guys,understand that police officers in the Special Operations Command are issued with revolvers even when responding to riots. Is it practical to issue a firearm with only 5 rounds of ammunition storage capacity in a environment where there may be hundreds or thousands of rioters?Not forgetting the fact that the rioters might snatch their sidearm and turn it against them,even though the weapon may have a retention and recovery system. Besides this...issuing a weapon wif a mere 5 round capacity when the need arises is almost no difference.Reloading of a revolver takes a longer time to reload, compared to the ease of ejecting and slipping in a new magazine for a semi-auto.

Btw,does the SAF issue pistols on real world ops?Read from an earlier post that WO's,Officers and PS above will get equipped with a pistol.Any idea of the loadout? Also..6SIR has equipped troopers of PS and above who are known as Force Commanders with pistols in a thigh rig too.Any comments from anyone in 6SIR to share mroe about this?

I believe pistols are the next necessary equipment in urban ops.This should have been introduced a long time ago.

Originally posted by SpecOps87:

HEy guys,understand that police officers in the Special Operations Command are issued with revolvers even when responding to riots. Is it practical to issue a firearm with only 5 rounds of ammunition storage capacity in a environment where there may be hundreds or thousands of rioters?Not forgetting the fact that the rioters might snatch their sidearm and turn it against them,even though the weapon may have a retention and recovery system. Besides this...issuing a weapon wif a mere 5 round capacity when the need arises is almost no difference.Reloading of a revolver takes a longer time to reload, compared to the ease of ejecting and slipping in a new magazine for a semi-auto.

Btw,does the SAF issue pistols on real world ops?Read from an earlier post that WO's,Officers and PS above will get equipped with a pistol.Any idea of the loadout? Also..6SIR has equipped troopers of PS and above who are known as Force Commanders with pistols in a thigh rig too.Any comments from anyone in 6SIR to share mroe about this?

depends on situation

IN singapore Riot control, not to kill people have baton, cane and shield. 5 rounds is good enough. they have extra clips.
future best is stunned guns.
wait get sue like crazy.
if the police man lose his mind, he may offload 30 rounds into the crowds or vice versa if he loses his gun.

in singapore ten people riot can bring in a force of 30.

anything more than that every one shows up.

no chance to happened.

in britain, just baton and shield. no need guns. its daily affair with football matches.

in more violent countires fully loaded gear and very long bamboo cane.

you see the bamboo cane, better run away.

I dont think the Educated public capacity of Singapore wants a Riot.

Although there may be possibility of peaceful demostrations in the future, but before some issues have to be discussed with demostrations , the Garment will come up with some panadol to help the Headache.

Training POs to be responsible for their rounds are a good practice. Such that only responsible officers get to hold such barbaric weapons.

Revolvers are not good to aim with so unless really necessary, one shouldnt fire it into the crowd. Especially with people in the background and the target a distance away.

Arms should only be used in life threatening cases.

Originally posted by SpecOps87:

HEy guys,understand that police officers in the Special Operations Command are issued with revolvers even when responding to riots. Is it practical to issue a firearm with only 5 rounds of ammunition storage capacity in a environment where there may be hundreds or thousands of rioters?Not forgetting the fact that the rioters might snatch their sidearm and turn it against them,even though the weapon may have a retention and recovery system. Besides this...issuing a weapon wif a mere 5 round capacity when the need arises is almost no difference.Reloading of a revolver takes a longer time to reload, compared to the ease of ejecting and slipping in a new magazine for a semi-auto.

Btw,does the SAF issue pistols on real world ops?Read from an earlier post that WO's,Officers and PS above will get equipped with a pistol.Any idea of the loadout? Also..6SIR has equipped troopers of PS and above who are known as Force Commanders with pistols in a thigh rig too.Any comments from anyone in 6SIR to share mroe about this?

A revolver will have 6 rounds in the drum and not 5.

when dealing with rioters, the primary weapon is tear gas, baton and shield.....

A revolver should be for self defence. in a riot task force, there should be marksmen armed with a rilfe..... these are the primary firearm.

since when police are only issued with 5 rounds?

revolvers also have to depands on which model... so have 5 rounds in the drums some have 6 rounds.. so which revolver you are talking about?

*blur*

Originally posted by SNAG01:

A revolver will have 6 rounds in the drum and not 5.

when dealing with rioters, the primary weapon is tear gas, baton and shield.....

A revolver should be for self defence. in a riot task force, there should be marksmen armed with a rilfe..... these are the primary firearm.

Rounds loaded into a revolver will depends on the make. Smith & Wesson .38 the one that our police force is facing out is loaded with 5 rounds with another 5 spare in a poach. The Taurus revolver which is already replacing the S & W if I m not wrong is also loaded with 5 rounds.

Sorry..I was talking about the Taraus revolver issued and the older S&W. Besides, read that there are 7 round revolvers too now?

Originally posted by SpecOps87:

HEy guys,understand that police officers in the Special Operations Command are issued with revolvers even when responding to riots. Is it practical to issue a firearm with only 5 rounds of ammunition storage capacity in a environment where there may be hundreds or thousands of rioters?Not forgetting the fact that the rioters might snatch their sidearm and turn it against them,even though the weapon may have a retention and recovery system. Besides this...issuing a weapon wif a mere 5 round capacity when the need arises is almost no difference.Reloading of a revolver takes a longer time to reload, compared to the ease of ejecting and slipping in a new magazine for a semi-auto.

Btw,does the SAF issue pistols on real world ops?Read from an earlier post that WO's,Officers and PS above will get equipped with a pistol.Any idea of the loadout? Also..6SIR has equipped troopers of PS and above who are known as Force Commanders with pistols in a thigh rig too.Any comments from anyone in 6SIR to share mroe about this?

There is a rapid loader for revolvers, which US law enforcement agencies used to have, before most of them converted to pistols. The time to reload is the same. Revolvers suffer from small ammo capacity which was why the FBI changed to pistols, after an incident in the 1970s, in which 3 of their officers were killed or injured during a shootout with 2 guys who were armed with pistols and shotguns !

Pistols being issued to SAF troops is actually not that uncommon. However, you don't see this in the "normal" infantry units. Either in specialised units (e.g. MPs) or in support units , where carrying a carbine is deemed to be "bulky" in certain situations.

The advantage of revolvers over semi-automatic pistols is that it will not "jam".

Even though you have like 5/6 rounds vs a much bigger capacity "magazine", you can be damn sure that all those 5 or 6 rounds will be fired without any problems.

Even if you have 15 rds (Bretta 92??in a mag, the pistol might jam after the 1st round!

I guess as a close quarter "back-up" weapon or in a Law enforcement scenario, 5/6 rounds is sufficient.

if you are going into a fire-fight, you don't need a pistol (revolver/auto) you need a automatic rifle or a SMG.

what i observed on TV on footages in Iraq is that the US troops will use pistols when they are very closeto suspects like doing body searches... i guess that is when a pistol is very handy.....

Maybe that is where the pistol is usable for 6SIR.

-Is it practical to issue a firearm with only 5 rounds of ammunition storage capacity in a environment where there may be hundreds or thousands of rioters?

I would say that situation is rather unlikely in Singapore. Plus the police are there to prevent rioters from causing damage to property and to disperse them, not kill them all. Tiananmen Square ring a bell?

-Not forgetting the fact that the rioters might snatch their sidearm and turn it against them,even though the weapon may have a retention and recovery system.

So wouldn't 5 rounds be better than 16?

-Besides this...issuing a weapon wif a mere 5 round capacity when the need arises is almost no difference.Reloading of a revolver takes a longer time to reload, compared to the ease of ejecting and slipping in a new magazine for a semi-auto.

Speed loaders. I've seen a guy reload his revolver in less than 3 secs.

Another thing about revolvers if one round fails to fire, all you have to do is pull the trigger again (double-action) and have a fresh round ready to fire.

Originally posted by OH-FF:

I dont think the Educated public capacity of Singapore wants a Riot.

Although there may be possibility of peaceful demostrations in the future, but before some issues have to be discussed with demostrations , the Garment will come up with some panadol to help the Headache.

Training POs to be responsible for their rounds are a good practice. Such that only responsible officers get to hold such barbaric weapons.

Revolvers are not good to aim with so unless really necessary, one shouldnt fire it into the crowd. Especially with people in the background and the target a distance away.

Arms should only be used in life threatening cases.

I believe Tasers will be used more widely.But we hope that the SAF will not have to be called to deal with a riot one day.

Try this site for various models of Taurus revolvers
http://www.gunrush.com/firearm/Taurus-Revolvers.htm

Originally posted by vincep:

Rounds loaded into a revolver will depends on the make. Smith & Wesson .38 the one that our police force is facing out is loaded with 5 rounds with another 5 spare in a poach. The Taurus revolver which is already replacing the S & W if I m not wrong is also loaded with 5 rounds.

The revolvers by S&W and Taurus chambered in 38 Special all have cylinders that hold six cartridges.

Some older revolvers do not have firing pin safeties, meaning that when the hammer is lowered, it is resting directly on the firing pin, and dropping the revolver on its hammer might result in an accidental discharge. For this reason, it is common practice (at least here in the US) to carry a revolver with the hammer down on an empty chamber. Hence, a six-cartridge cylinder is usually loaded with 5 cartridges, and pulling the trigger will rotate the cylinder to bring a loaded chamber up into firing position.

More modern revolvers employing firing pin safeties that disengage only when the trigger is pulled can safely be carried with all six chambers loaded.

MG

In the general context (not considering the Singapore Police Force) here are what I know of Revolvers vs Mag-loaded pistol facts.

REVOLVER ADVANTAGES

* Revolvers are capable of taking very big calibres without the weapon being uncomfortable to hold. Example, a .44 Magnum bullet can be designed to fit into the cylinder of a revolver, making for a handgun capable of killing a big animal. But a .44 bullet is too long to fit into a typical handgrip mag-housing pistol. The .50 Desert Eagle pistol for example, not only has a nasty recoil, it is also too big for most people's hands to grip.

* Revolvers used for assasination leaves no empty shell casings.

* Someone already said a revolver jams less. This is even more important when you have special loads like softpoints bullets, etc. Also, those people who like to load their own specially powerful cartridges would probably prefer a revolver as on a semi-auto pistol it may ruin the mechanism.

* Safety is better for when dropped, there is virtually no chance of the weapon going off unless it was already cocked.

* Another safety is that if the weapon is snatched there will be a maximum of 6 rounds in the weapon. Some officers I spoke to said they carry 5 rounds, leaving one empty chamber. Can't remember the reason why...

REVOLVER DISADVANTAGES

* A handgun is already hard to shoot properly. A revolver takes an even longer time to master especially for rapid firing without manually cocking every round.

* Small mag capacity as mentioned.

* Pistol magazine loading is faster, period.

* For assasination a revolver is hard to silence as the sound escapes from between the cylinder and the barrel.

Thanks for the information

The .50 Desert Eagle pistol for example, not only has a nasty recoil, it is also too big for most people's hands to grip.

Indeed, the grip is rather large and uncomfortable to hold, but recoil is surprisingly tolerable due to the sheer weight of the pistol and the gas-operated recoil mechanism.

A friend of mine has a DE Mk.XIX chambered in 50AE, and shooting his 300 gr. JHPs through it is actually fun, once you get used to the massive concussion and muzzle flash. At the local indoor pistol range, other patrons usually back away from the firing line when they see you're about to let loose with the DE!

* Safety is better for when dropped, there is virtually no chance of the weapon going off unless it was already cocked.

Only if the revolver is equipped with an FP safety. See my previous post. Also note that if a cocked hammer is accidentally released when a revolver is dropped, the FP safety will prevent the hammer from striking the FP.

MG

there is reason why revolver is still around.

They are design for a better grip then pistol.

For Asia that make more different !!! yes in movies and books, all yep 13 -18 round mag !!! fantastic pistols !!! But take it to the range and shoot. Then you will know what I mean. They may be the best pistol in the whole world and with large mags ... but in the end don't they kind of a little too big for our hands ?

Usually for Asia build if is better we go for a revolver or a pistol ( woman gun in US ) which 7-9 rounds. As they fix more firm and better suited for grips for Asia hands. Yes may sound weird, but remember the one with the lighter and smaller gun draw faster , with better grip and shoot better and faster ! In real life, if you have to shoot it out with pistol or revolver 1-4 rounds is the max and you be diving for cover or usually match is over, not like movies which you get to shoot all 13- 18 rounds.

Maybe having more rounds sound more advantage. But a truely train shooter who not just train to shoot, but also be able to reload in the dark in the shortest time. In a trained hand, reloading can be so fast that even the opposite have bigger mag, it may not make a different.

Remember for pistol and revolver the real purpose of them . It is not the amount of rounds, for if you really need that much, you should be using a MP-5 instead.

Originally posted by tvdog:

REVOLVER DISADVANTAGES

* A handgun is already hard to shoot properly. A revolver takes an even longer time to master especially for rapid firing without manually cocking every round.

Double-action revolvers solves that problem, though the trigger pull is slightly tougher.

But with practice one can fire a single-action pretty quick, cowboys.

Originally posted by Raptor937:

Double-action revolvers solves that problem, though the trigger pull is slightly tougher.

That's what I mean by revolver taking a long time to master. I was told by police NSF friends that when shooting double-action - i.e. one long trigger pull - most of them couldn't even hit a stationary target. If they cock first, slightly better chance.

Originally posted by tvdog:

That's what I mean by revolver taking a long time to master. I was told by police NSF friends that when shooting double-action - i.e. one long trigger pull - most of them couldn't even hit a stationary target. If they cock first, slightly better chance.

Try telling that to THIS guy!

(That's Jerry Miculek, by the way.)

MG

Originally posted by Meia Gisborn:

Try telling that to THIS guy!

(That's Jerry Miculek, by the way.)

MG

R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

That's all I can say...

Originally posted by tvdog:

That's what I mean by revolver taking a long time to master. I was told by police NSF friends that when shooting double-action - i.e. one long trigger pull - most of them couldn't even hit a stationary target. If they cock first, slightly better chance.

If you want to be acurate the best is to shoot using doublt -action method, same even for M-16, revolvers and pistols.

The problem pistol and revolver is that you only have 2 point contact, thus less stable and if too much trigger pull will jerk it off target. However , these is not the only reason, there is the zeroing part also, if you revolver or pistol is not zeroed, you can be the best double-action and still miss.

Yes last time with the old revolver there is a problem with shooting. That can be justified by the performance of real live action, reports of policeman engaging with revolvers but missed. But since the change to the new revolver, with the new laser point inbuild , the shooting has improved to a very good level. If you notice the case that involve shooting, the policeman do hit the targets ever time.

Originally posted by Raptor937:

Double-action revolvers solves that problem, though the trigger pull is slightly tougher.

But with practice one can fire a single-action pretty quick, cowboys.

For trigger pull, for both pistol and revolver, you acutally can tune it . Each person have different feel, thus different pull needed. A proper gunsmith is able to adjust it to suit the individual.

Sad fact in Singapore, you don't have that luxuray.