Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by SpecOps87 @ Fri, 15 Jun 2007 23:17:41 +0800

SpecOps87 — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 23:17:41 +0800

Originally posted by FireAndHell:

[b]

I read in the papers several weeks ago that Indo government want Sg to pay those employed as maids with a higher starting salary....just like what the Pino is asking.

Well.......looks like all our neighbours are looking at us not as good and helpful neighbour, but more as a ......cash cow to them.....where they try to squeeze money for our kindliness.....

Inside kena milk...outside kena milk...we're known as a population that gives and gives when forced.

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by FireAndHell @ Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:46:21 +0800

FireAndHell — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:46:21 +0800

Originally posted by SpecOps87:

Actually...if you ask me...Best is to give stuff to Timor Leste...and piss the Indons off.I mean crap...first they fark us over the sand, den the granite, den the extradition and now the defense treaty...what next? Increase maid price?

[b]

I read in the papers several weeks ago that Indo government want Sg to pay those employed as maids with a higher starting salary....just like what the Pino is asking.

Well.......looks like all our neighbours are looking at us not as good and helpful neighbour, but more as a ......cash cow to them.....where they try to squeeze money for our kindliness.....

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by tankee1981 @ Fri, 15 Jun 2007 08:47:29 +0800

tankee1981 — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 08:47:29 +0800

Originally posted by SpecOps87:

Actually...if you ask me...Best is to give stuff to Timor Leste...and piss the Indons off.I mean crap...first they fark us over the sand, den the granite, den the extradition and now the defense treaty...what next? Increase maid price?

Yeah, they ain't exactly very friendly neighbours if you ask me.

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by chino65 @ Fri, 15 Jun 2007 06:31:34 +0800

chino65 — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 06:31:34 +0800

With Indon, someone pointed out rightly that after Suharto, SG formed relationship with TNI leaders, which is the most stable entity in Indon.

Prime Miniters may change but the TNI is unshakeable.

With MY, relationship is slightly less tense after Mad Mahatir left office.

With Philippines, it's tricky.

You don't really know who is in charge and for how long. And things can change around dramatically overnight. If you help during President X reign, he/she might be deposed overnight in a coup and President Y comes on board and you have to start all over again - all your previous efforts lost.

Many people would say - "Oh, if not for the corrupt government, military, police etc Philippines would not be blah blah blah."

But IMO - the corruption and insurgencies is not the cause of the problems but the symptons of a society that has completely lost its way.

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by SpecOps87 @ Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:28:38 +0800

SpecOps87 — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:28:38 +0800

Actually…if you ask me…Best is to give stuff to Timor Leste…and piss the Indons off.I mean crap…first they fark us over the sand, den the granite, den the extradition and now the defense treaty…what next? Increase maid price?

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by Arapahoe @ Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:08:10 +0800

Arapahoe — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:08:10 +0800

i do agreed that Filipinos and Sin does not have good political relationship that stance from different political philosophy on human rights and past relationship with Marcos, and system of government, plus LKY is view as a dictatorship. Plus we hanged their maid.

But a stronger Phil would helps to bring balance of power on pacific side of Indo. Keep everyone in perspective. Maintain friends with a further neighbor and keep your suspect close.

ironically for a very short period of time we see SAF deployed to Indo region more than ever E. timor, Aceh. Nais. So i am sure Indo top brass are not thrill that SAF are in their door step so often.

I'm just not sure military contacts etc...helps to change perception. alternatle treatment would help. ( always wonder what the Aussie felt about us helping TNI. )

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by chino65 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:52:50 +0800

chino65 — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:52:50 +0800

Actually, just to get the facts on the table, the Filipinos don't all like us all that much either.

The only thing is that they are too far away to have much quarrel with us as they are not immediate neighbours like Indon and MY.

Usually they distrust anyone ethnically Chinese and they mostly find Singaporeans arrogant.

The reason helping the Filipinos is not as attractive is the practical reason that they have less to offer SG in return. The Fiiipinos prefer to work with the Americans, Koreans and Japs.

Say all you want about the Indons, we probably need their friendship more than they need ours.

In spite of the occasional flare up, there's more of a chance to be military allies with the Indons than with MY. There are many obvious collaborations already between SAF and TNI including the supply of arms like U100 and God-knows-what-else to them.

Whereas the MAF don't even buy one single bullet from us.

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by cairocks @ Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:20:45 +0800

cairocks — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:20:45 +0800

Originally posted by OldBird69:

I agree - from my travels in SEA, we are perceived as rich and arrogant. The Filipinos are probably in a more precarious domestic situation with JI and Al Qaeda-linked groups and they need all the good equipment they can get. Currently most are near obsolete hand-me-downs from the US. Also, they have territorial disputes with China (and other countries) over the Spratlies. A few years back, their WWII-vintage warship had to backdown near a Spratly island the Chinese had built a base on unilaterally, when a Chinese warship appeared. Maybe we sell them our MCVs (after they are decommissioned) at affordable prices, after our are fully operational.

From what I have read, the stealth frigates are to replace the MGBs. Don't think we are decommissioning the MCVs for some time to come yet.

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by SpecOps87 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:52:33 +0800

SpecOps87 — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:52:33 +0800

Originally posted by OldBird69:

I agree - from my travels in SEA, we are perceived as rich and arrogant. The Filipinos are probably in a more precarious domestic situation with JI and Al Qaeda-linked groups and they need all the good equipment they can get. Currently most are near obsolete hand-me-downs from the US. Also, they have territorial disputes with China (and other countries) over the Spratlies. A few years back, their WWII-vintage warship had to backdown near a Spratly island the Chinese had built a base on unilaterally, when a Chinese warship appeared. Maybe we sell them our MCVs (after they are decommissioned) at affordable prices, after our stealth frigates are fully operational.

Agree man.

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by LazerLordz @ Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:07:44 +0800

LazerLordz — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:07:44 +0800

Originally posted by OldBird69:

I agree - from my travels in SEA, we are perceived as rich and arrogant. The Filipinos are probably in a more precarious domestic situation with JI and Al Qaeda-linked groups and they need all the good equipment they can get. Currently most are near obsolete hand-me-downs from the US. Also, they have territorial disputes with China (and other countries) over the Spratlies. I remember their WWII-vintage warship had to backdown when a Chinese warship appeared near a Spratly island the Chinese had built a base unilaterally. Maybe we sell them our MCVs are decommissioned, at an affordable prices, when our stealth frigates are fully operational.

I agree. We should assist the Philippines more.

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by OldBird69 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:05:42 +0800

OldBird69 — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:05:42 +0800

Originally posted by Arapahoe:

i would have prefer to give Phil some Navy asset rather than to the Indo. The Fili have a serious threat from extremist group and the country is unable to provide equipment to much of the Phil island.

This is the reason why people in the region Said about Singapore we give for our selffish reason. The truth is while the indo may thank us at ground level, but at the top Indo level probably have negative effect.

I agree - from my travels in SEA, we are perceived as rich and arrogant. The Filipinos are probably in a more precarious domestic situation with JI and Al Qaeda-linked groups and they need all the good equipment they can get. Currently most are near obsolete hand-me-downs from the US. Also, they have territorial disputes with China (and other countries) over the Spratlies. A few years back, their WWII-vintage warship had to backdown near a Spratly island the Chinese had built a base on unilaterally, when a Chinese warship appeared. Maybe we sell them our MCVs (after they are decommissioned) at affordable prices, after our stealth frigates are fully operational.

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by FireAndHell @ Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:11:15 +0800

FireAndHell — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:11:15 +0800

Originally posted by SpecOps87:

Anyway..with the Indon. saga...it seems that we are being bent over and farked again...this time we just lan lan suck thumb and let them bang. Seriously...so far, we have always been overly soft...no show of determination or that "Don't Fark With Me" attitude. No resolve...how to get anything done?

[b]

I have to agree with the above statement 200%

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by SpecOps87 @ Thu, 14 Jun 2007 09:09:17 +0800

SpecOps87 — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 09:09:17 +0800

Anyway..with the Indon. saga…it seems that we are being bent over and farked again…this time we just lan lan suck thumb and let them bang. Seriously…so far, we have always been overly soft…no show of determination or that “Don’t Fark With Me” attitude. No resolve…how to get anything done?

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by photo_seeker @ Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:27:08 +0800

photo_seeker — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:27:08 +0800

On a side note, MINDEF definately have something up their sleeves by giving this to Indonesia. Most probably in exchange for rights to carry out training, etc.

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by photo_seeker @ Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:25:55 +0800

photo_seeker — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:25:55 +0800

Originally posted by FireAndHell:

Sg should have just sell the ship for scrap metal. Can still make alot of money, cos the price of scrap metal is very high. No point to give anything to the Indo who always have one hand behind their back........ready to strike Sg!

if you do read up, scrapping that vessel may incur cost, rather than profit as it's an old vessel which have left untouched for 5 years..

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by iSpeak @ Wed, 13 Jun 2007 23:34:50 +0800

iSpeak — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 23:34:50 +0800

Originally posted by Arapahoe:

the thing is this gift doesn't serve any purposes. first, They probably think that we look down on them they know this is a pcs of junk. they are probably eyeing on the frigate. they can't even agreed on the signed agreement.

I just think that it is a waste of effort or time. I think SG gov have to relook at the whole approach by changing perception thru softer approach rely only on military cooperation. It helps but not enough.

For military cooperation you end up touching on regional commanders and central planner may not like it suspious of intention creep up. (Remember in the eyes of our neighbour we aways do things with an intention)

So as said i still think the benefit given to Phil out weight Indo. The threat and intention are not there. A more stable Phil would be good for ASEAN.

Realistically, they can't expect us to give away one of our old Wolf-class gunboats do they?

If they see it as junk, why would they accept it? It must have been of some useful capacity to them, perhaps for training or shore patrol purposes. It would require resources, manpower and material, for them to run it, so they must in some way see it as some sort of viable investment.

Besides, all diplomacy is laced with self-centered purpose behind it.

It's a gesture more than anything on our part, and gestures are important.

All that crap about that ship being sabo-ed i.e spy chips implanted is just ludicrous speculation. Think we so free ah?

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by toll123 @ Wed, 13 Jun 2007 23:24:02 +0800

toll123 — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 23:24:02 +0800

Yeap….... Just treat it as we are giving unwanted junks to Indon

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by Arapahoe @ Wed, 13 Jun 2007 23:18:53 +0800

Arapahoe — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 23:18:53 +0800

the thing is this gift doesn't serve any purposes. first, They probably think that we look down on them they know this is a pcs of junk. they are probably eyeing on the frigate. they can't even agreed on the signed agreement.

I just think that it is a waste of effort or time. I think SG gov have to relook at the whole approach by changing perception thru softer approach rely only on military cooperation. It helps but not enough.

For military cooperation you end up touching on regional commanders and central planner may not like it suspious of intention creep up. (Remember in the eyes of our neighbour we aways do things with an intention)

So as said i still think the benefit given to Phil out weight Indo. The threat and intention are not there. A more stable Phil would be good for ASEAN.

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by givemeluck @ Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:17:31 +0800

givemeluck — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:17:31 +0800

can i give my old webbing n helmet to indonesia ?

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by iSpeak @ Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:12:34 +0800

iSpeak — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:12:34 +0800

Hey, why all the hate?

I think it's a brilliant diplomatic move on the part of our government.

Ships for sand?

Don't forget that this hunk of metal has been decommissioned since 2001, well over five years ago. Thus, we can pretty much conclude that we already deem it as an unnecessary feature of RSN's orbat and that it in the timespan of longer than five years it is highly unlikely we have not found another vessel that has taken over RSS Jupiter's role as a support ship.

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by allentyb @ Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:17:16 +0800

allentyb — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:17:16 +0800

TS, if you can’t come up with your own words, why not, do yourself a favour, STFU, stop embarrasses yourself

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by beavan @ Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:47:31 +0800

beavan — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:47:31 +0800

Originally posted by Eiizumi:

They should have scrapped metal off the ship to make the ship "thinner", so it wouldn't be a threat..

If you know what I mean..

can i sink it by throwing sand at them?

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by Eiizumi @ Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:22:22 +0800

Eiizumi — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:22:22 +0800

They should have scrapped metal off the ship to make the ship "thinner", so it wouldn't be a threat..

If you know what I mean..

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by FireAndHell @ Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:10:19 +0800

FireAndHell — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:10:19 +0800

Sg should have just sell the ship for scrap metal. Can still make alot of money, cos the price of scrap metal is very high. No point to give anything to the Indo who always have one hand behind their back….....ready to strike Sg!

Giving military aid to Indonesia......how stupid is MINDEF? replied by Fingolfin_Noldor @ Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:26:40 +0800

Fingolfin_Noldor — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:26:40 +0800

Whatever it takes to keep the buggers happy and not shouting at us for existing at all…

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