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Originally posted by chino65:How about a simpler question:
Has the 7-men sction been implemented? Or are we still on 9?JC wept ... how old are you dude?
When I enrolled in '88 My formation had already transitioned to 7MS. My reserves stint from 95-07 was also in a 7MS. Did they sneak in a phase of 9MS in between?
A few years before my enrolment, "D" coy was also no more and the whole "D" coy block was left vacant.
I guess 65 must be your year of birth then?
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Originally posted by kotay:
JC wept ... how old are you dude?
When I enrolled in '88 My [b]formation had already transitioned to 7MS. My reserves stint from 95-07 was also in a 7MS. Did they sneak in a phase of 9MS in between?
A few years before my enrolment, "D" coy was also no more and the whole "D" coy block was left vacant.
I guess 65 must be your year of birth then?[/b]I elistied in 83. But my reservist was in a PDF unit where most things are different
For a start, we used only 20-rd mags. Our brand new SBO had pouches meant only for 20-rd mags. My unit and other units in our brigade were the same. I don't know if this was for the entire 2PDF or just some brigades etc.
We have uneven number of men in the sections. Some had 9, some 8, some 7.
I was the platoon runner/radio man so I don't know the sections as intimately, to be honest.
Our platoon's size including Offrs & NCOs never exceeded 35 men so it is probably NOT 9-men sections. I must be wrong. Unless we had only 3 sections per platoon? Damn, cobwebs...
The distribution of firepower was also uneven.
Some sections had 2 SAWs.
Some had 2 M203.
So I don't even know what is standard.Edited by chino65 16 Jan `08, 1:10PM
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Originally posted by chino65:I elistied in 83. But my reservist was in a PDF unit where most things are different
For a start, we used only 20-rd mags. Our brand new SBO had pouches meant only for 20-rd mags. My unit and other units in our brigade were the same. I don't know if this was for the entire 2PDF or just some brigades etc.
We have uneven number of men in the sections. Some had 9, some 8, some 7.
I was the platoon runner/radio man so I don't know the sections as intimately, to be honest.
Our platoon's size including Offrs & NCOs never exceeded 35 men so it is probably NOT 9-men sections. I must be wrong. Unless we had only 3 sections per platoon? Damn, cobwebs...
The distribution of firepower was also uneven.
Some sections had 2 SAWs.
Some had 2 M203.
So I don't even know what is standard.Wah.. thats really history.
Now each section has 2SAWs, 2LAWs (Matador), 2 M203. Section 2IC is designated marksman i think.
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In a real life scenario.... because of attrition and the uncertainty in the number of men that can be called up, i seriously doubt we can all lined up properly in 7MS with all the proper loadout etc etc...
the orbat is probably a guide.... the fact that some section have more then 7 men is probably to handle attrition, when there are casualties or if men are out sick or didn't get recalled (deserter??), we need extra warm bodies around...
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Originally posted by chino65:I elistied in 83. But my reservist was in a PDF unit where most things are different
For a start, we used only 20-rd mags. Our brand new SBO had pouches meant only for 20-rd mags. My unit and other units in our brigade were the same. I don't know if this was for the entire 2PDF or just some brigades etc.
We have uneven number of men in the sections. Some had 9, some 8, some 7.
I was the platoon runner/radio man so I don't know the sections as intimately, to be honest.
Our platoon's size including Offrs & NCOs never exceeded 35 men so it is probably NOT 9-men sections. I must be wrong. Unless we had only 3 sections per platoon? Damn, cobwebs...
The distribution of firepower was also uneven.
Some sections had 2 SAWs.
Some had 2 M203.
So I don't even know what is standard.I'll hazard a guess ... what you eyes saw was a depleted Orbat as a result of no-shows/deferments/downgrades for ICT. Your ATEC would most probably have given you the closest to actual Orbat ... from an outside observer's POV.
From what I know of PDF Orbat, which isn't much, some of you guys are still formed up in the traditional 1980's Orbat. 9MS, Coy MGs (not Plt), 4 coys, etc. Do note that most Military formations, these days, are basically working in multiples of 3's
3 Sect = 1 Plt
3 Plt = 1 Coy
3 Coy = 1 Btn
3 Btn = 1 Bde
3 Bde = 1 Div
To complicate it slightly, you add in the HQ elements and support arms.Edited by kotay 16 Jan `08, 2:44PM
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Originally posted by Shotgun:Wah.. thats really history.
You mean the 20-rd mag?
Funny thing is, I never encountered a 20-rd mag till I got posted to 2 PDF during the last 6 of my ICT in the 90's. I left Singapore in '97. And even more funny, most of the 20-rd mag were almost brand new (although there were some ancient ones) probably fresh out of storage. And we got experimented for V200 mounted.
Originally posted by Shotgun:Now each section has 2SAWs, 2LAWs (Matador), 2 M203. Section 2IC is designated marksman i think.Same, that's what we have. LAW was Armbrust, of course. Who is Section 2IC depend more on rank/personality than the weapon carried.
Edited by chino65 16 Jan `08, 3:26PM
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Originally posted by kotay:Military formations, these days, are basically working in multiples of 3's
3 Sect = 1 Plt
3 Plt = 1 Coy
3 Coy = 1 Btn
3 Btn = 1 Bde
3 Bde = 1 Div
To complicate it slightly, you add in the HQ elements and support arms.It seems to be a mix of 3's and 4's for us.
Here's what I can remember of my unit 1?3 SIR, not counting HQ coy etc:
4 combat Coy = 1 Bn (3 rifle "A", "B", "C" Coy, 1 support "D" Coy)
3 Bn = 1 Brigade
I can't remember how many men per Section.
I can't remember how many Sections per Platoon.
I THINK it was 3 Platoons per Coy.
The GPMG/s belonged to the Coy but is attached to the Platoons but I can't remember how many GPMG teams each Coy had.
I was in the Platoon HQ as the runner together with the Medic, Pl Sgt and PC.
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Originally posted by chino65:Who is Section 2IC depend more on rank/personality than the weapon carried.
Again, I have to question if this is a result of having to make do due to a depleted Reservist Orbat.
Your appointment WILL determine your weapon issued - without taking into account improvisations due to "casualties". Exceptions to rule are live firings and any other exercise where a soldier is not allowed to carry/operate a weapon he is not trained on.
Which means that during most ICTs, if the 2 i/c has deferement, the stand-in 2 i/c "should" draw the 2 i/c's weapon, exception being ATEC/Live Fires.
Main reason why this is so, IMO, is so that battle drills do not get messed up. (please let's not get into an argument of rigidity in training).
There may be a difference in PDF SOP since not all your troops have the necessary basic training in all section/platoon arms. Mono-intake and/or ITD units have soldiers who are cross trained in all section level weapons ... which is why we have appointment holder = fixed weapon issued.
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Originally posted by chino65:It seems to be a mix of 3's and 4's for us.
4 combat Coy = 1 Bn (3 rifle "A", "B", "C" Coy, 1 support "D" Coy)
3 Bn = 1 BrigadeYou seem to be operating in 3's ... Delta Coy goes under support arms attached. At higher levels, support arms will include signal plt/coys, MP, med coys, etc ...
By 4 coys, I mean the really old, British Commonwealth derived Battalions with 4 line infantry coy (+ further support elements).
The GPMG/s belonged to the Coy but is attached to the Platoons but I can't remember how many GPMG teams each Coy had.
3 MG teams per Coy.
The old orbat, as you've mentioned, had all the MGs in an MG section under HQ, although, as you've also mentioned, operationally they tended to be parceled out to the platoons anyway. Orbat different but tactically pretty much the same.
I can't remember how many Sections per Platoon.
I THINK it was 3 Platoons per Coy.3 Sect per Plt.
3 Plt per Coy
Has never changed. Again, do not get confused by HQ and support elements. When we mention 3's and main composition, we only talk about the line units/maneuver elements.
I can't remember how many men per Section.
See if you can recall if there were soldiers carrying M16 and nothing else (other than SecCom). If there were, than it's 9MS. This is dependent on your men carrying all their issued weapons outfield. If someone conveniently "forgot" their LAW tube than it'll screw up the Picture.
Basically, in a 7MS, other than the SecCom, everybody else is carrying a support weapon - be it a M203, SAW or LAW.
In a 9MS, besides the SecCom, there are 2 other rifleman (incl 1 SS) who aren't carrying anything else.
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Originally posted by kotay:Mein Gott ... you're on the end of the spectrum as Chino65 then ... you must be bloody young to still have your BMT notebook
Bingo! ORD 2005 nia. I was the transition generation that were still issued with SBO and the last batch to take a reduced syllabus of bayonet fighting.
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