http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 en-US 60 <p>Can I say anyone who thinks of the country before himself? (I know I can't do it)</p> Sun, 06 Jul 2008 23:04:45 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8222684 Beautiful951 http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <blockquote> <div class="quote_from">Originally posted by Shotgun:</div> <div class="quote_body"> <p>Haha, its easier for me to believe that people can come back from the dead, cos I actually see reports of that happening now and then.</p> <p>But for a person to drown in waist deep water, well its rare.&nbsp; For a whole mass of people to do that?&nbsp; Well, care to show me any articles or news reports?</p> <p>Miracles DO do happen sometimes.&nbsp; And they are known because it got documented.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> </div> </blockquote> <p><br /> I never said that they were drown in the swamp...I said that historian believe that there is a battle between the jews and the egyptians in the reed sea, which was reintepret in the bible as 'the parting of the red sea'</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>If it is a religious war...I would say those invovled would love to add some juice to the story....</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Another possible explaination was there was a tsunami going on when the egyptians chased the jews.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>As we all know the sea retreat shortly before a tsunami take place, so it is another explaination put forth by the scientist and historians.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> Sun, 06 Jul 2008 23:03:28 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8222676 ray245 http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>Why compare Generals with no actual combat experience?</p> <p>Personally I like Erwin Rommel for his endeavours in North Africa. He was also the one who strengthened the Atlantic Wall. The Normandy breakout was due to bad communications between outposts.</p> Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:05:18 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8180370 Agenda http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>Gen. MacArthur</p> <p>then the CO of 101st Airborne Division, MAJ Dick Winters(if me not wrong,cuz i watch the Band of Brothers)</p> Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:56:07 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8180324 gaoxingdcf07 http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>1) Napoleon</p> <p>2) Gen. MacArthur</p> <p>3) Japanese Emperor during WW2 --- He got thousands of ppl to willingly become Kamikazes</p> Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:08:58 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8180156 bloodsucker http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <blockquote> <div class="quote_from">Originally posted by ray245:</div> <div class="quote_body"> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Now, back to documented history.&nbsp;</p> <p>Admiral Yi sun-sin, a admrial that won one of the most loopsided victory in history, got demoted all the way to private and rise back up in ranks.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin" rel= "nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin</a></p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>His greatest battle, <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Myeongnyang" rel= "nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Myeongnyang</a>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>13 Korean ships against 133 japanese ships, total victory on the korean side, with only 2 dead ,3 injured and no ships lost.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Japanese losses? 31 ships lost, 92 disabled, and about 8000 to 18000 dead...</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> </div> </blockquote> <p><br /> the one that invented their armoured turtle ship right?</p> Sun, 15 Jun 2008 02:19:06 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8166745 I-like-flings(m) http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>My Vote will goes to Han Xin.. As the saying goes.. Han Xin Dian Bing, Dou Dou yi shan!</p> Sun, 15 Jun 2008 01:39:56 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8166709 s.roylee http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>Haha, its easier for me to believe that people can come back from the dead, cos I actually see reports of that happening now and then.</p> <p>But for a person to drown in waist deep water, well its rare.&nbsp; For a whole mass of people to do that?&nbsp; Well, care to show me any articles or news reports?</p> <p>Miracles DO do happen sometimes.&nbsp; And they are known because it got documented.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> Sun, 08 Jun 2008 01:12:19 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8148881 Shotgun http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <blockquote> <div class="quote_from">Originally posted by Shotgun:</div> <div class="quote_body"> <p>Interesting how some people believe that an entire army can be drowned in a swamp...</p> </div> </blockquote> <blockquote> <div class="quote_from">Originally posted by Shotgun:</div> <div class="quote_body"> <p><a href="http://www.today.com/browse/tag-val_thomas/" rel= "nofollow"></a><br /> <strong>Miracles DO happens sometimes.</strong></p> <p>&nbsp;</p> </div> </blockquote> <p><img src="/images/emoticons/classic/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt= "icon_rolleyes.gif" /></p> Sat, 07 Jun 2008 03:38:54 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8146923 monoslayer http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>Moses didn't part the Red Sea.&nbsp; Most believed that "God" did.&nbsp;</p> <p>I find it hard to believe that an army's commander, would lead his troops into a waist&nbsp;deep or ankle deep water and command his troops to drown themselves.&nbsp; Tell ya what, why don't you go Egypt and ask the people there? They seem to believe it and feel pretty sore about it still.&nbsp;</p> <p>Medical miracles of people confirmed to be DEAD coming back to life happens more often than you think.</p> <p><a href= "http://transworldnews.com.pt/NewsStory.aspx?id=47939&amp;amp;cat=14" rel= "nofollow">http://transworldnews.com.pt/NewsStory.aspx?id=47939&amp;cat=14</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.today.com/browse/tag-val_thomas/" rel= "nofollow">http://www.today.com/browse/tag-val_thomas/</a><br /> Miracles DO happens sometimes.</p> <p>Honestly, it would have been more logical for you to dispute that the entire Red Sea Crossing never took place.&nbsp; Its easier to believe that than to believe an army drowned in a swamp.</p> Sat, 07 Jun 2008 02:06:02 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8146848 Shotgun http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <blockquote> <div class="quote_from">Originally posted by Shotgun:</div> <div class="quote_body"> <p>Interesting how some people believe that an entire army can be drowned in a swamp...</p> </div> </blockquote> <p>interesting how some people believe someone can part the sea or someone can come back from dead...</p> Sat, 07 Jun 2008 01:44:00 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8146824 monoslayer http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>Best generals are:</p> <p>1. Sun Tzu (he wrote a timeless war manual surviving countless generations and still used today by generals and business boardroom 'generals'). Published and republished in innumerable languages of the world.</p> <p>2. Clausewitz (similar to Sun Tzu, he wrote a war manual).</p> <p>3. Machiavelli (his name become a word 'machiavellian' spanning politics, business, and military), a testament to his enduring influence.</p> <p>Ok thats all.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Meat Pao.</p> Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:52:58 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8146745 Meat Pao http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <blockquote> <div class="quote_from">Originally posted by F-15:</div> <div class="quote_body"> <p>I always adore the French: Joan of Arc &amp; Napoleon.</p> </div> </blockquote> <p><br /> why not hitler?</p> <p>his jewish policies aside, he managed to go much further than napoleon</p> Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:48:52 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8135477 deathmaster http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <blockquote> <div class="quote_from">Originally posted by Shotgun:</div> <div class="quote_body"> <p>Interesting how some people believe that an entire army can be drowned in a swamp...</p> </div> </blockquote> <p><br /> I never said that the entire army was drowned in the swamp, I said that historians has said that the 'flood' isn't a real flood but a battle...</p> <p>And please, just because the bible said that there is a flood does not mean that there is a flood <strong>literally</strong> ...and moreover, bear in mind that alot of people isn't christian...so we would not believe in the bible's account. And kindly respect us for having a different belief and religion.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>While it is highly possible that moses could be a good general in history, you need to back up your information in regards to the event. Information that can be verified by facts and historians, not people who do research on the bible...</p> <p>Even if the egyptian army was killed by a flood, that is due to luck, praying and etc instead of using tactics. So you cannot say that Moses is the greatest general from that reasoning.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Which is why I think we should not mention about religious leaders in this thread if possible, unless we can find information from other source.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> Sun, 25 May 2008 11:48:31 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8111366 ray245 http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>I have utmost respect for Xenophon. Mostly because he’s also the cavalry commander.</p> Thu, 22 May 2008 12:29:57 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8104513 newcomer http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <blockquote> <div class="quote_from">Originally posted by Miracles&amp;Prophecies:</div> <div class="quote_body"> <p>As far as I understand it was the red sea...the Eqyptian soldiers didnt die fighting they died drowning. I mean could anyone die drowning in a swamp or a small river. I mean the entire army not just a formation of chariots.</p> <p>When men achieve the impossible his deed become legend and myth to be dispelled by sceptics long after his time.</p> <p>Besides I don't think the original text was written in English nor was translated to English to be mistranslated from Reed to Red.</p> <p>And the the people of Israel is just a myth of course.</p> <p>From wikipedia,</p> <p>religious leader, lawgiver, <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophet" title="Prophet" rel= "nofollow">prophet</a>, and <strong>military leader</strong>, to whom the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_authorship" title="Mosaic authorship" rel="nofollow">authorship</a> of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah" title="Torah" rel= "nofollow">Torah</a> is traditionally attributed. He is also an important prophet in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism" title="Judaism" rel="nofollow">Judaism</a>,^{<a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aaa-1" rel= "nofollow">[2]</a>} <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity" title="Christianity" rel="nofollow">Christianity</a>,^{<a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aaa-1" rel= "nofollow">[2]</a>} <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam" title="Islam" rel= "nofollow">Islam</a>,^{<a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aab-2" rel= "nofollow">[3]</a>} the <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith" title= "Bah&amp;amp;aacute;'&amp;amp;iacute; Faith" rel="nofollow">Bahá'í Faith</a>,^{<a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aab-2" rel= "nofollow">[3]</a>} <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism" title="Mormonism" rel= "nofollow">Mormonism</a>,^{<a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aaa-1" rel= "nofollow">[2]</a>} <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafari_movement" title= "Rastafari movement" rel="nofollow">Rastafari</a>,^{<a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aaa-1" rel= "nofollow">[2]</a>} <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlism" title= "Ra&amp;amp;euml;lism" rel="nofollow">Raëlism</a>,^{<a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-3" rel= "nofollow">[4]</a>}^{<a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-4" rel= "nofollow">[5]</a>}^{<a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-5" rel= "nofollow">[6]</a>} <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrislam" title="Chrislam" rel= "nofollow">Chrislam</a>^{<a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aab-2" rel= "nofollow">[3]</a>}^{<a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aaa-1" rel= "nofollow">[2]</a>} and many other faiths.</p> <p>After the <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt" title= "Plagues of Egypt" rel="nofollow">Ten Plagues</a> were unleashed on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt" title="Egypt" rel= "nofollow">Egypt</a>, he led the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt, through the <strong><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sea" title="Red Sea" rel="nofollow">Red Sea</a></strong>, where they wandered in the desert for 40 years. Despite living to 120, he did not enter the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel" title="Land of Israel" rel="nofollow">Land of Israel</a>,</p> </div> </blockquote> <p>Interesting how some people believe that an entire army can be drowned in a swamp...</p> Thu, 22 May 2008 12:14:30 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8104466 Shotgun http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>Sorry, late post, but better late than never.</p> <p>My vote goes to Ariel Sharon (as a soldier, but I don't agree with him on his politics):</p> <p>From early days as commander of Unit 101 (later to become paratroopers and their first Special Forces), as armoured divisional commander during 1956's Six Day War in seizing the Sinai (becoming Southern Front commander at end of the war), and returning to recapture the Sinai (and cross the Suez to be witihin 100km of Cairo) after a near catastrophic loss in Yom Kippur War of 1973. *</p> <p>&nbsp;* - I've heard that this battle, to attack in between the Egyptian 2nd and 3rd Armies and isolating the latter is now a compulsory topic on tank warfare in military academies around the world.&nbsp;</p> Thu, 22 May 2008 11:39:26 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8104338 OldBird69 http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>Hmm.... I'd go with Eisenhower.</p> <p>Though I think it was a mistake for him to go along with Operation Market Garden.</p> Wed, 21 May 2008 08:02:10 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8101620 fudgester http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>seeing that stupidity is the most powerful force in the universe, i vote for general stupidity...</p> Wed, 21 May 2008 07:57:27 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8101616 the Bear http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <blockquote> <div class="quote_from">Originally posted by ray245:</div> <div class="quote_body"> <p><br /> Think you should leave religion out of it, as some of us isn't christians and do not accept it as a fact.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Although the 'better' commander will be god instead of Moses...</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>And from what I understand, it isn't the red sea, but the <strong>reed</strong> sea. (It's a mistranlation from the original text) The reed sea is basically swamp or a small river.</p> <p>Historian have said that the parting of the reed could be a mythical representation of the battle, where Moses might have led the his army into victory, and tore 'apart' the egyptian army due to the swampy area being unsuitable for the chariots.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> </div> </blockquote> <p>As far as I understand it was the red sea...the Eqyptian soldiers didnt die fighting they died drowning. I mean could anyone die drowning in a swamp or a small river. I mean the entire army not just a formation of chariots.</p> <p>When men achieve the impossible his deed become legend and myth to be dispelled by sceptics long after his time.</p> <p>Besides I don't think the original text was written in English nor was translated to English to be mistranslated from Reed to Red.</p> <p>And the the people of Israel is just a myth of course.</p> <p>From wikipedia,</p> <p>religious leader, lawgiver, <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophet" title="Prophet" rel= "nofollow">prophet</a>, and <strong>military leader</strong>, to whom the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_authorship" title="Mosaic authorship" rel="nofollow">authorship</a> of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah" title="Torah" rel= "nofollow">Torah</a> is traditionally attributed. He is also an important prophet in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism" title="Judaism" rel="nofollow">Judaism</a>,<sup class=""><a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aaa-1" rel= "nofollow">[2]</a></sup> <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity" title="Christianity" rel="nofollow">Christianity</a>,<sup class=""><a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aaa-1" rel= "nofollow">[2]</a></sup> <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam" title="Islam" rel= "nofollow">Islam</a>,<sup class=""><a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aab-2" rel= "nofollow">[3]</a></sup> the <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith" title= "Bah&amp;aacute;'&amp;iacute; Faith" rel="nofollow">Bahá'í Faith</a>,<sup class=""><a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aab-2" rel= "nofollow">[3]</a></sup> <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism" title="Mormonism" rel= "nofollow">Mormonism</a>,<sup class=""><a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aaa-1" rel= "nofollow">[2]</a></sup> <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafari_movement" title= "Rastafari movement" rel="nofollow">Rastafari</a>,<sup class= ""><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aaa-1" rel="nofollow">[2]</a></sup> <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlism" title= "Ra&amp;euml;lism" rel="nofollow">Raëlism</a>,<sup class= ""><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-3" rel= "nofollow">[4]</a></sup><sup class=""><a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-4" rel= "nofollow">[5]</a></sup><sup class=""><a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-5" rel= "nofollow">[6]</a></sup> <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrislam" title="Chrislam" rel= "nofollow">Chrislam</a><sup class=""><a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aab-2" rel= "nofollow">[3]</a></sup><sup class=""><a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-aaa-1" rel= "nofollow">[2]</a></sup> and many other faiths.</p> <p>After the <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt" title= "Plagues of Egypt" rel="nofollow">Ten Plagues</a> were unleashed on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt" title="Egypt" rel= "nofollow">Egypt</a>, he led the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt, through the <strong><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sea" title="Red Sea" rel="nofollow">Red Sea</a></strong>, where they wandered in the desert for 40 years. Despite living to 120, he did not enter the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel" title="Land of Israel" rel="nofollow">Land of Israel</a>,</p> Wed, 21 May 2008 07:55:44 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8101613 Miracles&Prophecies http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <blockquote> <div class="quote_from">Originally posted by Miracles&amp;Prophecies:</div> <div class="quote_body"> <p>I second that Moses.</p> <p>For annihilating the grand army of then most powerful nation on earth without a single casualty.</p> <p>And of course for achieving the impossible maneuvering through the red sea with bare feet.</p> </div> </blockquote> <p><br /> Think you should leave religion out of it, as some of us isn't christians and do not accept it as a fact.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Although the 'better' commander will be god instead of Moses...</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>And from what I understand, it isn't the red sea, but the <strong>reed</strong> sea. (It's a mistranlation from the original text) The reed sea is basically swamp or a small river.</p> <p>Historian have said that the parting of the reed could be a mythical representation of the battle, where Moses might have led the his army into victory, and tore 'apart' the egyptian army due to the swampy area being unsuitable for the chariots.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Now, back to documented history.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Admiral Yi sun-sin, a admrial that won one of the most loopsided victory in history, got demoted all the way to private and rise back up in ranks.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin" rel= "nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin</a></p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>His greatest battle, <a href= "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Myeongnyang" rel= "nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Myeongnyang</a>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>13 Korean ships against 133 japanese ships, total victory on the korean side, with only 2 dead ,3 injured and no ships lost.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Japanese losses? 31 ships lost, 92 disabled, and about 8000 to 18000 dead...</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> Wed, 14 May 2008 14:33:55 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8085605 ray245 http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <blockquote> <div class="quote_from">Originally posted by BadzMaro:</div> <div class="quote_body"> <p>Moses.</p> </div> </blockquote> <p>I second that Moses.</p> <p>For annihilating the grand army of then most powerful nation on earth without a single casualty.</p> <p>And of course for achieving the impossible maneuvering through the red sea with bare feet.</p> Wed, 14 May 2008 10:09:35 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8084974 Miracles&Prophecies http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>Caesar's expedition to Britain didn't amount to much. Rome didn't actually conquer Britain until the reign of Claudius.</p> <p>Had Caesar not been murdered by his political rivals in the Roman Senate. I have little doubt that he would have defeated the Parthians and returned to finish the conquest of Britain.</p> Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:43:18 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8048144 Eddie Lee http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>I&nbsp;think Julius Caeser bah..he expanded the Roman Emipre's boundaries by alot during that time..He was a brillant general and manage to convince Pompey's legions to his side and then persuade the People of Rome to his side..so that makes him kinda a Great general and Great Politican. He was also the first to lead the Roman army to Britain if i'm not wrong, after he conquered Gaul(modern-day France).</p> Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:10:21 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8048076 XFantasyX http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930 <p>Yue Fei!</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:40:48 +0800 sgforums.com:1164:313930:8043362 eagle http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/313930