The Archer - leading the way into the future replied by SingaporeTyrannosaur @ Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:10:11 +0800

SingaporeTyrannosaur — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:10:11 +0800

Another thing to note is that the Swedes will probably be fighting from prepared positions for their arty, given their defensive stance mobility will not be as much of an issue given they would probably have more time to do combat engineering.

The Archer - leading the way into the future replied by CM06 @ Sun, 13 Apr 2008 06:53:06 +0800

CM06 — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 06:53:06 +0800

Oh it is going to as you said regarding the ammo truck and yes i know it was a suggestion with the bronco, which i felt was a good thing because we can build our own. Overall i feel that the archer system by itself in this design is not suitable for our context - You see, sweden views itself as a defender role like the short leg STOL/short runway rough runway Gripen. Swedish defence items seem to lack....endurance because of the nature of their threat (soviets)

For me (stating this for the third time) mud like snow is only one factor to consider in terms of mobility. - Dirtied terrain, degraded terrain are factors that makes us have the need to take tracks over wheels.- ditches, slopes, gaps other things that you dont see day to day but are put to obstruct traffic.

You only need that much protection for artillery anyway since if it gets a direct hit how much armour will also be of little use. It's a big gun to send rounds far away, anything more than 0.5inch / 14.5mm ap resistance is unneccessary.

The Archer - leading the way into the future replied by Atobe @ Sat, 12 Apr 2008 03:14:23 +0800

Atobe — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 03:14:23 +0800

Thanks to everyone for your contributions.

Surely the Swedes can be trusted for their very meticulous traits in the manner that they develop their military hardware - from the Bofor Guns, to the Gotelund Submarines, to the Saab and JAS Grippen Planes, to the unique Stridsvagn and Landsverk Tank Killers, and other unique Swedish military equipment.

While in Singapore we only face the challenges from muddy environment along the axis routes; the Swedes will have the experience of facing mud during the other months in a year when snow do not appear, and will face snow condition for more then two-thirds of the year in about 80 per cent of the country.

While snow may not be as sticky as mud, it has very much lighter weight bearing capacity than mud - as at the very bottom of the mud pile, there will be at least some firmer soil to support a heavy object that allow it to manouvre itself out.

In most snowed out area, the depth of the snow can be quite deep, and with snow not being compacted at the surface of the snow pile, it provides very little support until contact is made deep into the snow pile - and usually below a pile of snow there will be a slippery ice surface which affords little traction.

Between rubber tires and steel tracks - the Swedes have opted for rubber tires that allow air pressure to be adjusted to suit specific ground condition - {similar to the MAN trucks used in the SAF}.

The Volvo 6 x 6 platform - used in the Archer programme - was a civilian vehicle and already a very heavy duty off-road vehicle designed specifically for the very demanding conditions set by the earth moving construction industry.

For the Archer programme, it was made more rugged and given additional armor so as to meet with the very demandinng Swedish military standards.

The Archer programme is still in the early stages of development, with only two prototype in existence - as was mentioned in the video, but has already won the confidence of the Swedish Military and the Swedish Ministry of Defense; and the Australians are showing interest in this system as well.

With the intelligence of the Swedes, it will not be surprising if thought has already been given for an ammo carrier vehicle to accompany the Archer into battle.

The idea of a Bronco was an off-the-cuff suggestion that such an armoured logistic vehicle could support the Archer into the war zone. It need not necessarily be the Bronco type itself, and we could perhaps even see a Bionix IFV type being redesigned as an Ammo Support Vehicle with a folded crane to ease the transfer of palleted ammo to the Archer.

Knowing the simple common sense that the Swedes approach challenges, we could see another Volvo 6 x 6 articulated truck with an armor protected cargo carrier in the rear section, and perhaps some hydraulic crane to assist the smaller number of men needed to re-arm the Archer.

The Archer - leading the way into the future replied by Arapahoe @ Sat, 12 Apr 2008 01:05:38 +0800

Arapahoe — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 01:05:38 +0800

if the temperature is cold enough it would still maintain as snow and not melt and change it to ice surface. So u still get the friction.

The Archer - leading the way into the future replied by CM06 @ Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:48:42 +0800

CM06 — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:48:42 +0800

Snow is painful because it melts into water = less grip and then refreezes into ice - smoothens your friction surface. The thing is...we dont have snow here heh and we know that mud >>>>>wheels

Yes swedes used wheels because it's faster on roads, more fuel economical and finally the truck carrying the gun is a civi truck which in turn means lower costs.

Frankly i think it quicker to change the track of the primus than to actually change 6 wheels of the truck. Remove one bit of the track, connect to new, roll over to new track, curse swear to reconnect the new track vr jack up *6 to change tire. personal opinion.

Like i mentioned, wheels cannot cross ditches, go up slopes or steps - a delibrately dirtied / degraded terrain is likely to slow movement and wheels will get own by these.

The Archer - leading the way into the future replied by SingaporeTyrannosaur @ Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:29:57 +0800

SingaporeTyrannosaur — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:29:57 +0800

I don't get it... how can snow be harder to navigate then mud? Seems to me mud is the greater evil of the two with it's ability to clog things up, stick to your books, and simply bog everything down (thou you could argue that snow is more widespread as it can be deposited everywhere by the elements).

Also in either case, if snow was that bad then the idea solution would be tracks and not wheels! I am not entirely of the opinion the Swedish chose wheels because of it's cross-country mobility, but prehaps for other reasons? Speed? Cost? Less maintaince? Remember with the Primus you need to break track and all that stuff, but the Archer is probably less maintaince-intensive.

The Archer - leading the way into the future replied by CM06 @ Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:36:57 +0800

CM06 — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 22:36:57 +0800

My concern is the truck. It is very impressive. In fact when i saw the archer my first thought was, bye bye fh2000, here comes your replacement.

I would however, not try to risk a minimally protected civi vehicle oppose to counter fire. Our Primus being closer to the front line with the Archer system 5 clicks out of range from standard arty reach (40km, but you know, someone's system can technically reach 50km *cough*) providing good counter battery fire while in a shoot and scoot movement with a bronco.

The archer's great. My concern is, notice the lack of video showing the reloading vehicle? Yeah, that's a worry. The brochure states quite obviously that several key things are very "swedish" - integration might be problematic. Even the loading trucks i think is auto and a bronco might not be of the right shape.

Snow might be harder to navigate than mud...but...tracks can go up slopes/steps better than wheels and also cross over ditches/gaps.

Another thing is the length of the system, it...very long.. Those ar econcerns if we are to procure it. The gun system itself is very very impressive. 1 man hold psp controller = King of the battlefield. Heh imagine a battery of these...

It's good but by itself the whole system isnt very suitable for us. We will have to modify it by quite a bit should we aquire it which may well mean us building our own instead.

The Archer - leading the way into the future replied by SingaporeTyrannosaur @ Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:16:30 +0800

SingaporeTyrannosaur — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:16:30 +0800

Apples and oranges I believe, I'm not sure if snow is harder to move about then mud, but in terms of all terrain operations tracks generally tend to fare better.

But all in all an impressive piece of kit!

The Archer - leading the way into the future replied by Atobe @ Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:26:25 +0800

Atobe — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:26:25 +0800

Double Post

The Archer - leading the way into the future replied by Atobe @ Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:26:23 +0800

Atobe — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:26:23 +0800

Originally posted by CM06:

Er, this gun on 6X6 concept isnt new...

Archer Advantages

nearing complete development REAL up to date Tech

longer barrel - longer max range

stabilised chassis (doesnt shake like hell when you fire)

total crew protection for crew even when firing.

20 rounds ready to fire. Completely automated.

good range direct fire

ROWS 0.5 (yay finally not a pea shooter)

4 men crew -1 d 3 oper, min: 1 d 1 operator

A400m deployable and may have to dismantle.

PS3 CONTROLLER YAAAAAYYYYY

Draw backs -

only 20 rounds before resupply

still sustained rate of 2 rounds /min. This is a barrier artyguns have not breech!

No fire protection?! It's TBA

1 resupply vehicle per gun.

It's wheeled. Snow sand okay....but mud?!

Magazine for charges = predetermined. Unable to adjust once loaded.

Only small arms/ sharpnel protection for vital parts of gun, crew and drivers cabin.

Swedish systems.

Overall vehicle customised to swedish needs. Changing requirements would result in higher cost if at all possible.

Compared to our Primus - better range (350Km vs 500Km).

Our Primus is also NATO rounds compatible.

Primus has a larger magazine, better armour.

has shorter gun range due to shorter barrel/calibre

needs more minimum manpower.

lacks ROWS.

only 50km/h vr 70km/h

is a dull gray colour.

no PS3 controller.

not air deployable? (C5 /C17 anyone confirm pls?)

Why did we not make a 52 calibre SPH? I have no freaking idea.

To TS, Yes i agree, concepts of the archer can and should be intergrated into our future arty system.

You are right, the 6 x 6 platform is not a new idea, as the French's Caesar Self-propelled 155mm 52 calibre artillery built by GIAT has also a 6 x 6 platform, except that the Archer system is built onto a proven earth-moving platform - which is a Volvo articulated truck.

Compared to the Caesar unit which require an 8-man crew, the subject Archer SP 155mm 52 calibre is more economical in manpower requirement and certainly comply with the SAF philosophy.

The Archer system has been tried in the snow bound northern regions of Sweden, and snow is harder to negotiate than the thick mud in our equatorial region.

With the Archer built onto a Volvo articulated earth moving truck chasis, featuring 6 wheel independent drive system, this platform will be as effective as any tracked vehicle.

Incidentally, the Volvo platform performed very well in a test some years back in Singapore, in a local earth moving environment; but failed to beat the ''cost-to-volume moved'' that the American giant earth moving trucks had a superior advantage.

As for the re-supply of ammunition, the SAF PRIMUS will at some point also require replenishment in some safe area at the rear. The Archer's speed over the tracked PRIMUS - can enable the Archer to easily and quickly cover the distance to the resupply point at the rear and return into the fight much quicker than the PRIMUS.

The versatility in its speed will easily negate the limited ammo that it carries onboard

The other alternative is to provide a separate amored carrier similar to the Bronco that can accompany the Archer if plans call for continuous heavy artillery barrage within some time frame.

The biggest feature for this design remains with the small team of operators that is needed, and that even a single person is able to continue operating the system in a worst case scenario.

Reference site for Caesar 155mm 52cal Self-Propelled Artillery

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/caesar/

The Archer - leading the way into the future replied by tripwire @ Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:54:48 +0800

tripwire — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:54:48 +0800

and the best part? we can built it ourselves.... if we need it.

The Archer - leading the way into the future replied by CM06 @ Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:47:35 +0800

CM06 — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:47:35 +0800

Er, this gun on 6X6 concept isnt new...

Archer Advantages

nearing complete development REAL up to date Tech

longer barrel - longer max range

stabilised chassis (doesnt shake like hell when you fire)

total crew protection for crew even when firing.

20 rounds ready to fire. Completely automated.

good range direct fire

ROWS 0.5 (yay finally not a pea shooter)

4 men crew -1 d 3 oper, min: 1 d 1 operator

A400m deployable and may have to dismantle.

PS3 CONTROLLER YAAAAAYYYYY

Draw backs -

only 20 rounds before resupply

still sustained rate of 2 rounds /min. This is a barrier artyguns have not breech!

No fire protection?! It's TBA

1 resupply vehicle per gun.

It's wheeled. Snow sand okay....but mud?!

Magazine for charges = predetermined. Unable to adjust once loaded.

Only small arms/ sharpnel protection for vital parts of gun, crew and drivers cabin.

Swedish systems.

Overall vehicle customised to swedish needs. Changing requirements would result in higher cost if at all possible.

Compared to our Primus - better range (350Km vs 500Km).

Our Primus is also NATO rounds compatible.

Primus has a larger magazine, better armour.

has shorter gun range due to shorter barrel/calibre

needs more minimum manpower.

lacks ROWS.

only 50km/h vr 70km/h

is a dull gray colour.

no PS3 controller.

not air deployable? (C5 /C17 anyone confirm pls?)

Why did we not make a 52 calibre SPH? I have no freaking idea.

To TS, Yes i agree, concepts of the archer can and should be intergrated into our future arty system.

The Archer - leading the way into the future replied by Atobe @ Thu, 10 Apr 2008 03:28:15 +0800

Atobe — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 03:28:15 +0800

The Swedish has developed a formidable 155mm 52 calibre heavy artillery that is self-propelled on a 6 x 6 wheeled platform that afford it maximum mobility, and is most economical in manpower - (only 3 men) - required to operate.

Designed to get artillery support through any weather and ground conditions that will bog down other artillery systems, this one is reputed to stand out.

It will even allow one man to operate this big and mobile gun - in a shoot and scoot, fully automated operation.

With smart guided artillery shells - such as the laser guided Excalibur, this big gun will provide big bang for every buck spent on it.

For the guys used to cradling or strapping a GPMG around the neck - try drooling over the videos and imagine driving in one of these armoured Self-propelled howitzers and firing the gun.

This gun could be the standard by which the SAF and DSTA can look at for the next follow-up artillery series as a progression from the FH-88, FH-2000, the Primus [Self-propelled], and to the Pegasus [light field howitzer].

Archer Video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4jnUXUzV2c

http://www.videosift.com/video/BAE-Systems-Bofors-AB-ARCHER-Artillery-system-08

Archer Data:

http://www.fmv.se/WmTemplates/Page.aspx?id=1373

Excalibur Video

http://www.futurefirepower.com/excalibur-smart-artillery-round-fire-and-forget

SAF Artillery Live Firing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrY18XT-H1M

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