Flight International reported last week that Singapore has revived its naval helo program. S-70, NH-90 and AS-332C are shortlisted. Singapore will buy 4 with full equipment and 2 without. Equipment is downgraded from original requirement due to budget.

they should have dumped the helos and go for the UAVs instead…

AS332C?

Originally posted by tripwire:

they should have dumped the helos and go for the UAVs instead...

Can UAV carry out search and rescue mission,can it carry out UW warfare? I think the Navy Helo is for new frigate.

Originally posted by kopiosatu:

AS332C?

naval ver of the puma

Originally posted by zenden9:

Can UAV carry out search and rescue mission,can it carry out UW warfare? I think the Navy Helo is for new frigate.

i dont think the SAR mission figures high on the RSN agenda for the helo... but if the UAV can spot the survivals... the FFG probably can try to reach them... and bring them out of water...

now... these USV would complement the UAV or UCAV nicely....

http://www.radixmarine.com/PDFs/USV%20Market%20Study.pdf

you can even load it with AShM or Torps...

you can even load afew such USVs on a single FFG... and use them to pirana the enemy, provide advance surface search... blah blah blah...

Originally posted by tripwire:

i dont think the SAR mission figures high on the RSN agenda for the helo... but if the UAV can spot the survivals... the FFG probably can try to reach them... and bring them out of water...

now... these USV would complement the UAV or UCAV nicely....

http://www.radixmarine.com/PDFs/USV%20Market%20Study.pdf

you can even load it with AShM or Torps...

you can even load afew such USVs on a single FFG... and use them to pirana the enemy, provide advance surface search... blah blah blah...

If talking abt 4 to 5 survivor,a chopper can quickly pick them up! A chopper can attain a speed of 100 knots while a normal ship can travel only at 30 knots. You wouldn't want to let the survivor to wait ,right!

A normal chopper can also perform what a UAV do but UAV can't!!

sorry to inform you... while SAR is considered as one of the functions of ANY ships within vicinity of the mishap...

it must be noted that singapore didnt spend a billion dollars... load up the ships with so many weapons and systems just to concentrate on SAR.

while helos do provide rapid SAR... but a few USV and UAVs fanning out in a search would probably locate any survivors far earlier and operate over a longer time then any single helo can ever hope.

the search areas covered by the USV and UAVs would probably exceed that of the helo by several times...

and if something goes wrong... we loose a UAV or a USV... if something goes wrong with the helo and if its ditched into the sea... we end up with even more problem on our hand...

The reason for the heli for our new navy frigate is :

1) Provide over the horizon radar coverage. Using the heli radar or add on side mount or below mount radar, it enable the frigate to detect or engage targets that is further then what its own radar can detect ( beyond enemy range) very important in sea aspect.

2) Use as a sub hunter, heli have proven to be one of the best counter sub platform for sonar and weapon. It can search more areas then ship.

3) Provide additional weapon platform. It can carry anti-ship and anti-sub weapons.

Originally posted by storywolf:

The reason for the heli for our new navy frigate is :

1) Provide over the horizon radar coverage. Using the heli radar or add on side mount or below mount radar, it enable the frigate to detect or engage targets that is further then what its own radar can detect ( beyond enemy range) very important in sea aspect.

UAV also can... depending on size, specification.. it probably can provide better enemy detection then helos can at a fraction of a helo's cost and no need pilot..

even many present days armies around the world are going for UAV rather then helos to do the scouting and forward search plus destroy.

2) Use as a sub hunter, heli have proven to be one of the best counter sub platform for sonar and weapon. It can search more areas then ship.

proven!? well... please tell me.. how many subs has the helos sunk around the world eversince helos starts to be used for ASW....

furthermore... a USV can also be converted into sub hunters...

3) Provide additional weapon platform. It can carry anti-ship and anti-sub weapons.

you never heard of UCAV har? do you know that USV can also carry missiles and torps...

Originally posted by tripwire:

What u mention may be valid but at the end of day RSN is going to buy a helo and not listening to yr expert advice to get a UAV!
Basically,no Helo UAV can handle the weight of 2 anti-submarine torpedo and a dipping sonar! I suggest Super-Lynx as the best naval helo contender ! Small for the Frigate helo deck and lethal in its armament!

Originally posted by zenden9:

What u mention may be valid but at the end of day RSN is going to buy a helo and not listening to yr expert advice to get a UAV!
Basically,no Helo UAV can handle the weight of 2 anti-submarine torpedo and a dipping sonar! I suggest Super-Lynx as the best naval helo contender ! Small for the Frigate helo deck and lethal in its armament!

and how much does your torpedo weighs??

the spartan USV can carry up to 5000lbs of payload...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2003/12/mil-031208-navsea03.htm

heres the spartan configured for ASW for the enterprise CVG.

Originally posted by tripwire:

and how much does your torpedo weighs??

the spartan USV can carry up to 5000lbs of payload...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2003/12/mil-031208-navsea03.htm

heres the spartan configured for ASW for the enterprise CVG.

Ok! Tell me the spartan USV has ever carry torpedo or sea skua to destroy any enemy before! I tell u one thing SAR is one of the top priorites in RSN.Courageous incident show how helo is crucial in SAR operations,we can afford to let the casualties wait for yr ship to come,is it? Our frigate is coming out next year and we cannot afford to experience with those USV crap! Yes,the USV may perfect that things in a few years times but can our navy afford to wait?
Pls provide some sensible suggestion! I believe u r not a kid!

Double posting

Originally posted by zenden9:

Ok! Tell me the spartan USV has ever carry torpedo or sea skua to destroy any enemy before! I tell u one thing SAR is one of the top priorites in RSN.Courageous incident show how helo is crucial in SAR operations,we can afford to let the casualties wait for yr ship to come,is it? Our frigate is coming out next year and we cannot afford to experience with those USV crap! Yes,the USV may perfect that things in a few years times but can our navy afford to wait?
Pls provide some sensible suggestion! I believe u r not a kid!

did the lafayette sink any ships?? but then we still buy what....

moreover... the last formidable ship wont be out for quite afew years... why the rush to put choppers on the first frigate now?? we going to war soon?

as for SAR... its not top priority ok...

Originally posted by tripwire:

did the lafayette sink any ships?? but then we still buy what....

moreover... the last formidable ship wont be out for quite afew years... why the rush to put choppers on the first frigate now?? we going to war soon?

as for SAR... its not top priority ok...

yeah... besides, SAR is meant more for the airforce. If the navy starts doing SAR, then it would give them more work.

anyway our SAR is quite effective already.

Originally posted by kopiosatu:

yeah... besides, SAR is meant more for the airforce. If the navy starts doing SAR, then it would give them more work.

anyway our SAR is quite effective already.

It is a work that RSN is already taking! Courageous incident who will go and do the job? The navy and airforce,right! So u r saying we shall let airforce handle all the courageous SAR!

Originally posted by zenden9:

It is a work that RSN is already taking! Courageous incident who will go and do the job? The navy and airforce,right! So u r saying we shall let airforce handle all the courageous SAR!

RSN is not taking heli ops for SAR. RSAF is.

And RSN cannot be taking heli ops because activating and moving off from a ship is not as fast as you think it is.

There is tying down to be done, you need to tow a GPU. Navy offers JP5 fuel, not that ideal for the Makila Engine which uses mainly JP4.

Originally posted by tripwire:

did the lafayette sink any ships?? but then we still buy what....

moreover... the last formidable ship wont be out for quite afew years... why the rush to put choppers on the first frigate now?? we going to war soon?

as for SAR... its not top priority ok...

Lafayette is a frigate with its ASW,anti-ship warfare ,AAW concept proven!

Has yr helo UAV concept proven in any naval warfare???
Friend,i'm talking abt concept! Is it justify to use lafayette not sinking any warship as a example to prove yr helo UAV is equally proven?Pls think of a better example!

Have u heard a helo UAV sunk a warship?
I known warship sunk had another warship and Lafayette is a warship! It's concept is proven!

By the way,our dear neighbour has already taken delivery of their Super-Lynx in their frigate,don't u think we shall keep up with them or like what us say 'Why rush,wait loh! See how loh'.

let me clarify the RSAF & RSN requirements

The RSAF is looking for a helicopter to replace the UH-1H
The RSN needs a helicopter for its frigates

The idea helo will need to meet both requirements, thats why a UAV is out. RSAF is looking for a troop transport helo.

RSN requires a helo for surface search, asw, sar, ship to ship transport and boarding other ships. A UAV cannot do that.

The current naval UAV out there is still pretty limited in usage. Mainly sensors without weapons. In future, the delta frigates may have one on board but that will not replace but complement its helo. The power requirements for RSN sensors is too demanding for any UAV now. We have been operating UAVs for twenty years yet they are still used for survillance. UAV is the future but SAF is looking for one that serve alot of purposes which UAV cannot meet.

Originally posted by cavsg:

let me clarify the RSAF & RSN requirements

The RSAF is looking for a helicopter to replace the UH-1H
The RSN needs a helicopter for its frigates

The idea helo will need to meet both requirements, thats why a UAV is out. RSAF is looking for a troop transport helo.

RSN requires a helo for surface search, asw, sar, ship to ship transport and boarding other ships. A UAV cannot do that.

The current naval UAV out there is still pretty limited in usage. Mainly sensors without weapons. In future, the delta frigates may have one on board but that will not replace but complement its helo. The power requirements for RSN sensors is too demanding for any UAV now. We have been operating UAVs for twenty years yet they are still used for survillance. UAV is the future but SAF is looking for one that serve alot of purposes which UAV cannot meet.

highest chance would be RSAF would attach SAR duty personnel to its frigate...

siao liao... more work to do.

then again i hear that 126 might be coming back to SG.

with respect to the courageous incident... considering the manner the ship was hit and the crew died... i doubt any of the girls could be saved even if a SAR helo is right on top of courageous PV during the incident..

in such incidents... generally... deaths comes very quickly (drowning especially)... and for serious injuries.. which include uncontrolled bleeding or unconsciousness.. death is but mere minutes away depending on the rate the blood is being lost.

secondly... if our helo purchase need not take into consideration of the naval requirement... the army would probably has a wider, cheaper, more efficient and cost effective choice.

the army would probably be able to purchase more helo.... with the savings.

the USV is a concept like the lafayette... proven but no scores... and the UCAV predator has scored kills and proven the usefulness of arming UAVs and future UCVs for combat roles.

if the RSN is gonna move forward in RMA, the UCV, UCAV, USV should be given a second consideration... these platforms can even be used as OTH forward spotters, decoys, baits and missile launchers.. while enable the RSN FFG to remain hidden from enemy view.

First production NH-90 on display at ILA Berlin exhibition

Eurocopter and its partner companies in the NHIndustries consortium, Agusta and Stork Fokker, are proud to announce that the first serial NH90 helicopter to come off the Eurocopter production line in Germany is publicly presented at the ILA Berlin Air Show on May 11th. The aircraft performed its maiden flight last week on May 4th at Eurocopter's Donauwrth facility in Germany.

Originally posted by tripwire:

with respect to the courageous incident... considering the manner the ship was hit and the crew died... i doubt any of the girls could be saved even if a SAR helo is right on top of courageous PV during the incident..

in such incidents... generally... deaths comes very quickly (drowning especially)... and for serious injuries.. which include uncontrolled bleeding or unconsciousness.. death is but mere minutes away depending on the rate the blood is being lost.

more likely the choppers would have been called into action to help remove ppl on the boat.Especially when it get's too dangerous for another ship to pull along side.....in bad weather or something.And having a chopper hover over head to pick up ppl is way way fast then having a bloody ship pull alongside

i dont think its a good idea to pull your million dollar ship next to a wreckage for whatever reason... especially in bad weathers when there is a potential for the wreck to hit the rescue ship.

most of the time... when possible they use dingies, life boats or even ropes and nets to reach the victims.

the USV likewise... measuring 7 by 11 meters long can piggyback survivals to the FFG if needed...

or a UAV could drop inflatable raft to the victims...

but the bottom line is... are we buying so many helos for SAR or for operational need of the SAF??

if our primary aim is SAR... why not build more LSD and put 2 helo per LSD and be done with it?

the lafayette is not a ship of mercy... its a ship of war....