Don't condemn people in AA
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There are no perfect people in this world and that should be obvious to everyone except for those that think themselves perfect.
There are no perfect lifestyles in this world and that should be obvious to everyone except the those that think themselves living the perfect lifestyle.
Just because you prefer to live life in the "best possible manner" according to your standards, does not mean that others share your sentiments.
Some people prefer to live a happy life rather than a perfect life.
Some people prefer to live a happy life rather than a disciplined life.
Some people prefer to live a happy life rather than a careful life.
If living a perfect, disciplined and careful life makes you unhappy, do you think you would want to? Live a perfect, disciplined and careful life? Maybe, if you are a religious fanatic that hopes to get to heaven.
What makes one person happy does not necessarily makes another happy.
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If you are not happy with someone's behavior, you can condemn the person or you can condemn the action.
If you condemn the person and classify him as "Evil" or "Bad" you are behaving like a "GOD". That is to say, you presume that you know everything and can weigh everything and are truly rational and and have perfect understanding.
To be able to classify someone as "Good" or "Evil" you have to know everything about that person so that you can balance all his "Good" against all his "Bad".
You have to be able to not just say what "Good" is and what "Bad" is but be the authority to set the standards. You have to be "GOD"
So for all those that think they are "GOD"
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If you are constantly condemning everyone around you and classifying their behavior as "good" or "bad" and think that people must classify you and your behavior as "good".... I think that you are one of the most pitiful and sad person on earth. Just that you do not know it.
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This thread is to debate what the best practice for AA should be, this forum, when people come to ask for help.
Whether "helpers" should be allowed to "condemn" those seeking for help and to condemn those providing advice that they do not like.
To determine what is "condemning others" and what is "condemning certain actions".
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To allow the "condemning of others" and "condemning of certain actions" or to allow only the expressing of opinions.
Example:
"You are very bad because...." (Condemning people)
"This is very bad behavior because...." (Condemning people's behavior)
"I will not do this because... (Giving others their opinion)
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My opinion is that those that like to condemn people and other people's behavior should go to BAR and do it.... I want to see how long they can survive BAR
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stick it
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TQ TQ TQ TQOriginally posted by de_middle:stick it -
Just to let all of you know that I am aware of this issue here (I believe Yun and Popikachu are aware of it too) and we haven't turned a blind eye on it.
I will have to have some discussion (via pm) with Yun and Popikachu in the coming weeks to come up with some AA forum etiquettes (hopefully reviewed by Jason). It will probably be a combination of Yun's existing "Guidelines for AA" and other stuffs we believe are appropriate.
Please bear with us in the mean time and really appreciate your cooperations in helping us to keep this AA forum a pleasant place for everyone who comes in to seek help/advice.
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You have a very detailed explaination of the problems long existed in this sub-forum. The only thing I feel sad is that: your views and comments may be neglected more than ½ of the time.
Many times people have voiced out their concerns over what you have said. I believe as what honeymouse has pointed out 'Yunhaier has written some guidelines in a sticky thread regarding this', all readers and those who wanted to post their comments and views should consider very carefully the stand and feelings of the thread starters and themselves. Yet so many simply ignored this and go ahead and impose their opinions onto those who needed help.
Aunt Agony in this forum is very unique. Unlike many other sub forums, this forum is a sanctuary for the needy and helpless (to an extent) and, by right, it is a place which offers some form of help and solace. Notice I never put 'advice'. However many people do not understand what 'Aunt Agony' stands for.
'Aunt Agony' (from what I know and from my own perspectives, it may NOT be right) is a place where readers view the issues the thread starters have and share their sentiments while offering a pat in the back or give their views from their own experiences. It is never a place where readers insist or even demand, from their experiences, that their way is the only way or the right way.
You said it yourself, "What makes one person happy does not necessarily makes another happy."
The fustrating thing is that besides many readers enforcing their comments onto the thread starters, many thread starters do not even understand that they do not have to take in every word the readers have input and ultimately it is in their own onus to make the best possible decision. What ever happens next is unknown but at least the thread starters will learn more about this whole issue rather than assigning blame to the readers, who have given their views and they have taken their 'advice' literally, or blame themselves even further.
Meaning? Both sides have to know their stand and understand how Aunt Agony works.
You give your comments, the thread starter listen to you and do it. Something happen and you are accountable because the thread starter took YOUR advice.
honeymouse is right. There must be a clear guideline to define where Aunt Agony should stand. An open forum whereby fellow readers can share their experiences and make the thread starters feel at home and at ease. Not a condemning station. -
This is a free forum and we should all be free to judge.
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Eh?Originally posted by choco B:This is a free forum and we should all be free to judge.
Then this shouldn't be called 'Aunt Agony', but 'Judging Agony' liao.
I don't understand leh. Can explain more?
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Free speech.Originally posted by Bontakun:Eh?
Then this shouldn't be called 'Aunt Agony', but 'Judging Agony' liao.
I don't understand leh. Can explain more? 
True... I do agree... and also that when you post a thread you have to be prepared for all sorts of replies and know that you don't have to heed everything...
(sorry ah keep editing cos I keep having things to add lol)
Like, thread starters should bear in mind that forumites are not certified. Besides, it's human nature to judge (and not everyone has the ability to see that we should judge actions and not the person himself). -
Everyone judges.
Even while typing this I am judging you, and you are judging me.
If it is a free forum, all opinions should be allowed.
If one can't take the heat, don't play in the kitchen.Originally posted by Bontakun:Eh?
Then this shouldn't be called 'Aunt Agony', but 'Judging Agony' liao.
I don't understand leh. Can explain more? -
rules and guidelines can be set, problem is will it be follow ?
We should also educate thread starters that what comend or "advises" given here by the readers are simply the readers point of view. Its up to them how they deal with their problem.... otherwise this forum should not be here in the first plc as i think most people here are not trian to handle emotional problems.
jus my thoughts -
Oh......Originally posted by choco B:Everyone judges.
Even while typing this I am judging you, and you are judging me.
If it is a free forum, all opinions should be allowed.
You are right when I have a tendency to judge you. However I throw that off the window and treat you as a friend. Or if you want to put it realistically: I judge you as a good person.
Did I mention I am a poor judge of character?
Ok ok. Jokes aside, all opinions should be allowed. That is not wrong, but perhaps more fine lines should be added so that some individuals do not twist the meaning of it?
All opinions should be allowed to express the individual's thought so as to help the readers understand further about the situation and such possibilities of happening.
More refining? -
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[quote]Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
Some people prefer to live a happy life rather than a perfect life.
Some people prefer to live a happy life rather than a disciplined life.
Some people prefer to live a happy life rather than a careful life.
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Let others live the life they want, so long what they want do not intrude into my life or affect others negatively.
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Judgement is part of life, there is on right or wrong or good or bad. It is what people do. One does not need to explain nor justify.
Sorry, I do not agree that there should be any guidelines with regards to opinions posted.Originally posted by Bontakun:Oh......
You are right when I have a tendency to judge you. However I throw that off the window and treat you as a friend. Or if you want to put it realistically: I judge you as a good person.
Did I mention I am a poor judge of character?
Ok ok. Jokes aside, all opinions should be allowed. That is not wrong, but perhaps more fine lines should be added so that some individuals do not twist the meaning of it?
All opinions should be allowed to express the individual's thought so as to help the readers understand further about the situation and such possibilities of happening.
More refining? -
Originally posted by Xiaozzhen:
that bit about "affect others negatively" is rather impossible because where do you draw the line of what is "negative" or "positive"?
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[quote]Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
Some people prefer to live a happy life rather than a perfect life.
Some people prefer to live a happy life rather than a disciplined life.
Some people prefer to live a happy life rather than a careful life.
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Let others live the life they want, so long what they want [b]do not intrude into my life or affect others negatively. [/b]
What is negative to some people might be positive to another... and so tolerance goes a long way...
If it makes others happy and it does not affect you "too negatively"... live and let live... as far s you can... you will be a happier person... -
Think TS can sumarise his long essay into few words...
That is "AA should be considerate and understanding when giving advice."
Anyway, from TS essay, I can also ask every1 in AA this question :
"Who thinks that he or she is a sucessful AA?"
"Who thinks that he or she can fully 100% understand the writer of that thread?"
"Who thinks that his or her advice can 100% help the writer of that thread?"
"Who thinks that AA is not a human being?"
Actually, it is the thought from the AA that counts. I feel that most people's ,that choose to post in AA, intention is really wants to help. Be it from the writer's point of view, story's 2rd party's point of view, story's 3rd party's point of view or AA's shared experience, all these advice can really widen the writer's narrow or dim view of his or her situation. As what most of us know, the decision is still up to the writer. However, the many different aspect of advice is like many helping hands surround the writer in his or her darkness.
Anyway, AA is also human being. Sometimes, AA , himself or herself, will also gets to emotional stir and thus forgetting to be considerate and understanding. Then, let the rest of the AA give a gentle reminder lor... -
It is better to be judged by people in this virtual world.
Rather than be judged by people in the real world.
In the virtual world, one can pull the switch to make it go away.
It is a mirror from which you see your mistakes, yet goes to bed without pain.
One that you can come back as someone else.
One that allows you to make mistakes over and over again.
In the real world, you get pay back directly from the people around you.
It is in the existence of life where mistakes costs greatly.
You are who you claimed to be, from birth through your death.
Know the real from the make beliefs. -
Actually in the real world... if you know the technique ... you can switch them off also... unless you are masochistic..Originally posted by jojobeach:It is better to be judged by people in this virtual world.
Rather than be judged by people in the real world.
In the virtual world, one can pull the switch to make it go away.
It is a mirror from which you see your mistakes, yet goes to bed without pain.
In the real world, you get pay back directly from the people around you.
It is in the existence of life where mistakes costs greatly.
Know the real from the make beliefs. -
This is an open forum... Not everybody would be here with the sincere intention to advise... Some would only where to 'look see', while there might be worse...?
Some cooks are just intentionally out to spoil the soup even... End of the day, just try to learn and ignore them....? -
Yes indeed it is a technique.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Actually in the real world... if you know the technique ... you can switch them off also... unless you are masochistic..
No one is born with such a noble knowledge.
It has to be learned, to be experienced.
A technique one needs to survive this cruel world of ours.
Is it not true ?
Why do you seek to change the world.
When the world cannot change you ? -
The moment they choose to post in AA, they have decided to look at all the views available.
If we are not to judge and present our views, you can safely assume ALL our advices would be the same. This is an open forum - anyone can come in and present their views.
And that is why the AA board is powerful. It exposes you to views of not just one of your friends, but maybe twenty. Sure, there are some idiots around, but the majority are presenting their views.
In such a forum, judging is inevitable. Imposing of views is inevitable. Utopia does not exist.
While there are definitely some whose advices seem overboard at times(dokono comes to mind), there are much more others who are rather.... kind with their words.
While the strong negative replies might affect the thread starter, understand this: life is not a bed of roses.
If you cannot accept this diverse views that would inevitably include jeers, condemnations and the likes, then don't post in AA. Consult your close friend, and listen to that one sided sympathetic voice. Just because you can't stand the heat. -
I am in for a democratic POV given by people. Having a guideline/rule fettering individual opinion will generally effect to nothing because people will generally post what they want to post - you can’t really stop them. It has been happening for years – other than its ‘Golden Age’, probably around 1999-2000, where most old birds provided constructive lengthy essay as long as me and back then, there probably no such thing as +1.
Seriously, I donÂ’t really wish to see Aunt Agony turning into a nanny forum where even views are controlled. Seriously, I would prefer to see an entire spectrum of replies than having a pool of similar replies. Personally too, I may not agree with some posts, but I reckon itÂ’s essential to have a more wholesome topic altogether and that itself is two separate matters.
I hope we all realize that how we think about otherÂ’s view is not as important as how TS reckon.
Not everyone will analysis problems and propose solution in a channel like this. In fact, most are just expressing their innate POV, posting their heartfelt feelings with regards to TSÂ’s issue. (E.g. I hate those arse who steals peopleÂ’s girlfriend and I think you are one. Period).
Does that mean that when people condemn, they are not contributing their thoughts to TSÂ’s problem? I think they do, or at least surely, these people care enough to read through the problems and post what they think of this matter. To me, thatÂ’s good enough, compared to completely nonsensical replies like +1.
Eventually, they are all accountable for their own words because people giving nonsensical replies are usually admonished by other forumers, even without the intervention of Mod. (Unless things blow up, but these are usually isolated cases).
I respect and treasure all views given, as long as it has something to do with the topic. Of course I appreciate AndrewÂ’s take on this matter as I hope it could educate others when dealing with future TS to come. But previewing current situation, I donÂ’t think we have reached to a stage where MOD action must be taken.
Aside to HM and Pika: a good question to think about would be: Must we always mother our problem-seeker? Would that be beneficial?
Aside to potential problem seeker: Alternatively, feel free to use PM, instead of making your topic public for all eyes.
P.S: We should always learn to give the entire basket of assorted fruits to TS and let TS do the sorting. Filtering what fruit I think is sweet may not always be the fruit that is healthy and vice versa. It would be too barbaric to presume what we think itÂ’s good for TS and deny TS the privilege of having all views.
And condemn is a view.
Cheers -
Andrew, I know where you are coming from. Your advice is sound for situations where the negative and positive are grey areas (certain ones, anyway).Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:that bit about "affect others negatively" is rather impossible because where do you draw the line of what is "negative" or "positive"?
What is negative to some people might be positive to another... and so tolerance goes a long way...
If it makes others happy and it does not affect you "too negatively"... live and let live... as far s you can... you will be a happier person...
What I am talking about is more like this example:
If you like to smoke and it makes you happy to smoke. In fact if you don't smoke, you get withdrawals.
But if your smoke gets to me, I'll be unhappy, as I don't like the smoke and it doesn't quite make me sick, it makes me mad.
So I will not tolerate it. If I can get away from the smoke, I will. If it is an enclosed area, must I tolerate? What about the people around me, including young children who do not know how to protest or get away, because they have not learnt the skill?
So is your advice : the smoke does not get to me too negatively.. live and let live... and I'll be a happier person? I don't see it!
It is always difficult to give sound advice, especially one that encompasses so many areas. -
In fact, it is better to give advice to a specific problem.
Even that is difficult. -
Originally posted by Yunhaier:
I think whatever we do, we will require some kind of guidelines just like what you have in place. While I totally believe everyone is entitled to provide their point of view, I just hope that everyone who contributes would learn to respect other people's point of view even if they don't agree with it.
Aside to HM and Pika: a good question to think about would be: Must we always mother our problem-seeker? Would that be beneficial?
And condemn is a view.
Cheers
Calling names, insulting others etc should not be tolerated here.
As for your question - No, it's not an obligation for us to "mother" our problem seeker and I have no intention to do so. However, I generally tend to be extra sensitive to the problem-seeker's feeling and self-esteem. I believe everyone (including those people who are obviously in the wrong) deserves some kind of respect and my objective is to do what I can to help them get back on the right track again.
I personally don't believe condemning is a very effective way of expressing the view. People who are condemned because of the things they have done are less likely to change for the good as they don't see any point of doing so. These people need to be encouraged instead.
That's my view point. Yours might be different from mine but I totally respect it.