do you recognise the pope? replied by gigabyte14 @ Thu, 01 May 2008 15:41:13 +0800

gigabyte14 — Thu, 01 May 2008 15:41:13 +0800

if all christians are saints, then the ah beng christians out there are what?

angels?

do you recognise the pope? replied by Sumone3 @ Thu, 01 May 2008 15:31:19 +0800

Sumone3 — Thu, 01 May 2008 15:31:19 +0800

Originally posted by 24/7:

pray tell what u think is the real issue? Apparently Sumone3 and I have tried to understand you but to no avail.

24/7, I think laurence is just making use of the chance to put his own point across.

Actually, I do understand laurence's perspective.

Let's just say, not all non-believers are the type that would go around nit-picking on the traits of others. Just as there are different types of Christians, there are different types of non-believers as well.

Yes, nit-picking in itself is not a trait limited to only non-believers, neither are all non-believers like that. Probably I won't say it's a common human trait, but non-believers nit-picking is just one aspect of it all. There is, but to say everyone or that it's common is a different thing altogether. Maybe to some nit-picking is second nature, hence it seems common to them.

do you recognise the pope? replied by laurence82 @ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:30:10 +0800

laurence82 — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:30:10 +0800

Originally posted by Chin Eng:

when I politely tell quarrelsome non-Christians not to post if they don't agree, people say forum is public place, can suka suka post.

heehee

remind me of someone

do you recognise the pope? replied by Chin Eng @ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:08:29 +0800

Chin Eng — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:08:29 +0800

Originally posted by laurence82:

u can ask to be owner

what for?

when I lock threads, I get accused of being intolerant.

when I politely tell quarrelsome non-Christians not to post if they don't agree, people say forum is public place, can suka suka post.

do you recognise the pope? replied by laurence82 @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:12:52 +0800

laurence82 — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:12:52 +0800

Originally posted by Chin Eng:

Actually this thread has gone OOT since post two. Had this forum been moderated, it should have been locked.

u can ask to be owner

do you recognise the pope? replied by Chin Eng @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:04:36 +0800

Chin Eng — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:04:36 +0800

Actually this thread has gone OOT since post two. Had this forum been moderated, it should have been locked.

do you recognise the pope? replied by 24/7 @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:00:54 +0800

24/7 — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:00:54 +0800

pray tell what u think is the real issue? Apparently Sumone3 and I have tried to understand you but to no avail.

do you recognise the pope? replied by Mrlimkopi @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:35:28 +0800

Mrlimkopi — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:35:28 +0800

Pope Benedict XVI

do you recognise the pope? replied by pigsticker @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:51:42 +0800

pigsticker — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:51:42 +0800

so who's the pope now??

do you recognise the pope? replied by laurence82 @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:47:07 +0800

laurence82 — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:47:07 +0800

Originally posted by 24/7:

hi laurence82,

as much as Christians have committed wrongdoings, there have been instances of many others who have done a whole lot of good in the name of Christianity.

i believe to evaluate Christianity, u shld look at the ideal figure, and that is Jesus Christ, the things He taught and how He lived his life.

If believers fall short of the life of JC, it's not that the teachings have failed. But the believers have failed. Does that invalidate JC's teachings in anyway? Does that diminish his authencity?

Not making excuses for Christians but all our lives, shortcomings or successes, shld point to Jesus Christ, and how we need his grace.

Genuine believers desire to clean up their act and reflect Jesus in their actions, but if there're black sheep among the fold who abuses the name of Christianity, you can't help it. It only illustrates how depraved we really are by nature. For instance, if i give you a gun, you can either use it to defend or to kill others. The inventor meant it for a certain purpose, but its the user who misuses it.

i think nobody is in denial of what you mentioned above, but i believe that isnt the issue here

do you recognise the pope? replied by 24/7 @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:26:48 +0800

24/7 — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:26:48 +0800

hi laurence82,

as much as Christians have committed wrongdoings, there have been instances of many others who have done a whole lot of good in the name of Christianity.

i believe to evaluate Christianity, u shld look at the ideal figure, and that is Jesus Christ, the things He taught and how He lived his life.

If believers fall short of the life of JC, it's not that the teachings have failed. But the believers have failed. Does that invalidate JC's teachings in anyway? Does that diminish his authencity?

Not making excuses for Christians but all our lives, shortcomings or successes, shld point to Jesus Christ, and how we need his grace.

Genuine believers desire to clean up their act and reflect Jesus in their actions, but if there're black sheep among the fold who abuses the name of Christianity, you can't help it. It only illustrates how depraved we really are by nature. For instance, if i give you a gun, you can either use it to defend or to kill others. The inventor meant it for a certain purpose, but its the user who misuses it.

do you recognise the pope? replied by Sumone3 @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:24:34 +0800

Sumone3 — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:24:34 +0800

dumbdumb,

I think you and laurence are somewhat talking on different planes. Laurence is talking about wrongdoing done in the name of religion, eg jihad or crusade wars (extreme examples but I hope you get my point).

You on the other hand are talking about how Christians being human would still committ wrongdoings. Only that certain non-believers would make use to this to 'trap' Christians.

I'm not too sure whether Laurence understands what you are trying to tell him, that for Christians we know that inspite of our sins, God has chosen to forgive us and die on the cross so that we may be saved. This however is different from his point about how Christians or members of any religion committ wrong doing in the name of their respective religions.

Similarly I'm not too sure if you understand what he is driving at.

do you recognise the pope? replied by Mrlimkopi @ Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:32:17 +0800

Mrlimkopi — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:32:17 +0800

Hi Malcom,

I am not sure about Anne Catherine but as far as Mother Teresa is concern, she is not a saint yet...but on her way.

To obtain sainthood is a long process (that may take many years) and the Catholic Church cannot just confer anyone that title - they do it with divine's intervention.

When someone who live her life very Christ-like (like Mother Teresa) dies, the local Bishop will have to start the process to canonize he or her for Sainthood. The recoomendation will go to the Vatican and investigation will be made to confirmed that the person is worthly to be considered a Saint.

Mother Teresa is Beatified and certainly on her way to sainthood but the Church has yet to declare her as one.

One of the many criterion is to pray for divine sign of miracles that results from the intercession of the person (who is to be declared a Saint). An example of a miracle will be a person with terminal diease (medically proven) gets a complete recovery after asking for intercession from the person (who is to be declared a Saint) - again it must be medically proven. The Church will likely accept this as a miracle but I think (I am not sure) that at least 3 miracles is needed before the person can be declared a Saint.

Therefore, it make sense for us to seek intercession from Saints to help us pray for our intentions.

For dumbdumb who still insist that Christians are entitled to sin like others, I agree....many Christians do that. But, if any Christians are truely serious about their faith and believe, they should start (at least try lah) to like like Christ.

Mother Teresa is one shining example of someone who can do it. Of course there is only 1 Mother Teresa.....but we can at least stop that smoking, cursing, swearing, not respecting etc.... God teaches us not to do that but if one choose not to listen to God, they cannot blame non-believers for "entrapping them".

Instead, they should look at themselves and reflect on what they do......and why they "entrapped themselve". If one loves God, he must stand up for him and the best way is to follow his teachings.

God Bless All

do you recognise the pope? replied by malcom @ Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:55:15 +0800

malcom — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:55:15 +0800

The Bishop of Rome or the Pope is the head of Catholic Church. As successor of St. Peter, he shares St. Peter's special authority or primacy.

(http://www.catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp)

More on this can be found in above link.

Saint is someone who is showing his/her love for Christ, who loves us by dying on the cross, by leading a holy life, keep His commandment faithfully. Some have even go as far as offering themselves to share the pain that Christ endure during the crucifixion, and when it was granted they bore the wound of Christ, which is called stigmata.

Some saints are granted by God special gifts to perform miracles. These miracles, I believe is a way for God to tell us to believe in Him, because He knows that it is not easy to believe.

Some saints who are recognized by the Church are canonized after their death. The canonization is a special recognition by the Church authority that he/she is holy, and that we as other Catholics can look up to him/her as good example in leading our life holy.

An example is Anne Catherine Emmerich. She born from very poor family in Germany, she was sent to study music, but finding the organist's family very poor she gave them the little she had saved to enter a convent, and waited on them as a servant for several years.

I think she has not been canonized but she definitely is a saint.

As part of their leading holy life and fulfilling the requirement of being in communion with the Catholic Church, they of course recognized Pope Authority. Maybe this is what you mean "Pope is higher than saints"?

Even Mother Teresa, where ever she go, she respect and obey the local priests, as the priests I believe is in the higher position in the hierarchy than herself as a religious sister.

do you recognise the pope? replied by laurence82 @ Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:45:20 +0800

laurence82 — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:45:20 +0800

Originally posted by dumbdumb!:

and that's unfair for the believers. it's not about what's easier or what's not easier.

of course, christians should live a life which glorifies God, for the benefits of the non believers. i agree with you there.

but i'm talking about non believers entrapping christians by listing out faults that christians exhibit, as if they expect christians are beings infallable to human faults. and because of that, it pretty much sucks.

they forget that the difference between a christian and a non believer, is the grace that is shown for us. we're just as bad, if not worse than non believers. that's precisely why we're christians, we recognise that we pretty much messed up our lives, we've screwed up, we've lost tempers, we've hurt others, etc etc etc, and that there is forgiveness for all the guilt and we receive it. and it's so good to be forgiven, and loved for who we are, and we're telling others that it feels good to be free, and to be loved, because God is love and God is a good God.

so it's kinda redundant when non believers refute it by saying God isn't a good God because christians aren't good.

if christians are good and infallable, we won't be christians already, agreed?

it is easier, sorry, but i am biased for action and i dont believe that a fault be apportioned due to lack of resolve from a party, clear all acts before looking at the biases and prejudice and wrongdoings

if non believers entrap christians by nitpicking faults, again, its a common trait of every human bean, and i also dont believe that for a behaviour that is widely practised it can be simply categorised into christians-non believers divide

if you strive to be a good christian, i believe that the amount of sins and wrongdoings committed are so minimal that anything else will be a simple matter of nitpicking, but are we coming to this stage yet?

maybe when christians (heck, any person of any religion) stop justifying their wrongdoings by using god's name, will we see better days

for your last point is, strive to be a better christian, what for look at the weaknesses and feel helpless? i know of christians who look at past failings and the environment around them to reflect upon themselves and strive to do better, why cant you?

do you recognise the pope? replied by 2e3 @ Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:09:54 +0800

2e3 — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:09:54 +0800

wah so many discussions...

To ans TS's qus, firstly i'm a catholic therefore i recognize the pope as the head of the Catholic Church.

and as mentioned "Saints as those who have been canonised" but to me personally it doesn't matter does it?

its a recognization that one have indeed been living the christian life. How ever thats onli a title at the end of the day

what we do now is the most important yes the pope represent God to us yet in the same way we represent God to others when we call ourselves christians/ catholics so at the end weather u recognize or not the pope as a leader is still ur own decision. more imptly we should respect and recognize the things that one has done in the name of God.

don't forget the pope does not only handles religious matters, he has a say in politics too, so what he has done in making this world a more peaceful place is more impt then weather we should follow ever word he says.

do you recognise the pope? replied by dumbdumb! @ Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:23:27 +0800

dumbdumb! — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:23:27 +0800

Originally posted by laurence82:

i am saying as it is as well, and its unfair to non believers

because if their cousin/brother/son did it in the name of god, or practising this as a believer of god, why wouldnt people think that basically the failure of the teachings of god?

its like, its not their responsibility to discern what is right or wrong

couldnt it be easier if the christians clean up their act, then we can talk about biases, wrong image, and stuff like that?

forever having this viewpoint will never help anything, especially if it impact you and the christian community, not the non believers

and that's unfair for the believers. it's not about what's easier or what's not easier.

of course, christians should live a life which glorifies God, for the benefits of the non believers. i agree with you there.

but i'm talking about non believers entrapping christians by listing out faults that christians exhibit, as if they expect christians are beings infallable to human faults. and because of that, it pretty much sucks.

they forget that the difference between a christian and a non believer, is the grace that is shown for us. we're just as bad, if not worse than non believers. that's precisely why we're christians, we recognise that we pretty much messed up our lives, we've screwed up, we've lost tempers, we've hurt others, etc etc etc, and that there is forgiveness for all the guilt and we receive it. and it's so good to be forgiven, and loved for who we are, and we're telling others that it feels good to be free, and to be loved, because God is love and God is a good God.

so it's kinda redundant when non believers refute it by saying God isn't a good God because christians aren't good.

if christians are good and infallable, we won't be christians already, agreed?

do you recognise the pope? replied by laurence82 @ Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:54:08 +0800

laurence82 — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:54:08 +0800

Originally posted by dumbdumb!:

lol, i'm not being unfair. i'm saying it as it really is.

you have to understand that not all non believers are rational like you. and don't mix up the issues.

you'll be surprised that alot of non believers, telling us stuff like "you tell me your God is good? my cousin/brother/son etc is a christian, he don't give me respect at home, he is rude, he smokes, he cuss, loses his temper everytime, unloving, etc... don't come to me and tell me about how good your God is la.."

i am saying as it is as well, and its unfair to non believers

because if their cousin/brother/son did it in the name of god, or practising this as a believer of god, why wouldnt people think that basically the failure of the teachings of god?

its like, its not their responsibility to discern what is right or wrong

couldnt it be easier if the christians clean up their act, then we can talk about biases, wrong image, and stuff like that?

forever having this viewpoint will never help anything, especially if it impact you and the christian community, not the non believers

do you recognise the pope? replied by dumbdumb! @ Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:38:34 +0800

dumbdumb! — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:38:34 +0800

Originally posted by laurence82:

this is a fairly unfair statement

i believe they are right to think so, if you justify by using jesus name, as i have said earlier

its not for them to be able to discern wat is christian like or unchristian like (well even this christians have differences over)

and most of all, you neglect the fact jesus is nothing to non believers, not even as a third neutral party to the communication between you and the non believers

to us, jesus is not an omnipotent, omnipresent, infallible entity

lol, i'm not being unfair. i'm saying it as it really is.

you have to understand that not all non believers are rational like you. and don't mix up the issues.

you'll be surprised that alot of non believers, telling us stuff like "you tell me your God is good? my cousin/brother/son etc is a christian, he don't give me respect at home, he is rude, he smokes, he cuss, loses his temper everytime, unloving, etc... don't come to me and tell me about how good your God is la.."

do you recognise the pope? replied by Mrlimkopi @ Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:17:03 +0800

Mrlimkopi — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:17:03 +0800

Well, a friend of mine once told me - only 1 person read the Bible and 99 persons is reading the Christians. Therefore, what Christians says and do is important - right ?

If you believe in Christ and follow His teaching, it is all about loving your neighbour. There are many beautiful stories in the Bibile when Jesus is trying to teach his followers that God is loving, forgiving, borderless etc...

Sadly, some Christians have "twisted" the teachings and start dividing everybody - even within the household (knowingly or unknowingly)....

Of course, we are all human and we do err and sin. What we do after that (mistake or sin) is important.

God bless all.

do you recognise the pope? replied by Sumone3 @ Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:46:51 +0800

Sumone3 — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:46:51 +0800

Originally posted by laurence82:

this is a fairly unfair statement

i believe they are right to think so, if you justify by using jesus name, as i have said earlier

its not for them to be able to discern wat is christian like or unchristian like (well even this christians have differences over)

and most of all, you neglect the fact jesus is nothing to non believers, not even as a third neutral party to the communication between you and the non believers

to us, jesus is not an omnipotent, omnipresent, infallible entity

I would say that among non-believers, there are different types and different levels of response. There are those like what he has mentioned that would make use of the name to try and 'trap' believers.

There are also those others, who like you said Jesus is nothing to them. Jesus could even be the name of a regular person but they just don't care about this other person, much less use the name to 'trap' another person.

It is one thing to not believe, it is another thing to go through efforts and pains to use the very thing to come and hurt you.

do you recognise the pope? replied by laurence82 @ Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:56:17 +0800

laurence82 — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:56:17 +0800

Originally posted by dumbdumb!:

haha, sometimes being a believer suck big time. you can't always be good, you're bound to lose tempers, be impatient, be unloving. and when that happens. non-believers take the chance to try to trap you, and using your actions to justify that Jesus isn't a good God.

this is a fairly unfair statement

i believe they are right to think so, if you justify by using jesus name, as i have said earlier

its not for them to be able to discern wat is christian like or unchristian like (well even this christians have differences over)

and most of all, you neglect the fact jesus is nothing to non believers, not even as a third neutral party to the communication between you and the non believers

to us, jesus is not an omnipotent, omnipresent, infallible entity

do you recognise the pope? replied by dumbdumb! @ Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:50:06 +0800

dumbdumb! — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:50:06 +0800

Originally posted by laurence82:

of course, when believers justify it by using jesus name

haha, sometimes being a believer suck big time. you can't always be good, you're bound to lose tempers, be impatient, be unloving. and when that happens. non-believers take the chance to try to trap you, and using your actions to justify that Jesus isn't a good God.

do you recognise the pope? replied by laurence82 @ Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:28:28 +0800

laurence82 — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:28:28 +0800

Originally posted by dumbdumb!:

oh you'll be surprised how non believers will think abt Jesus just by studying believers' conduct.

of course, when believers justify it by using jesus name

do you recognise the pope? replied by dumbdumb! @ Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:26:50 +0800

dumbdumb! — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:26:50 +0800

Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:

Well, I think you understand what I mean...

I don't think people will hate Jesus when they see things that we do - which they think we shouldn't be doing.

But, we need to be careful not to do things and says it is because of Jesus - for Jesus teaches us to love each other as how he love us. He also says the most important is "To your neighbour".

Christianity is all about, faith, hope and love and nothing is more important than love.

God Bless.

oh you'll be surprised how non believers will think abt Jesus just by studying believers' conduct.

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