Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by domonkassyu @ Mon, 26 May 2008 12:46:43 +0800

domonkassyu — Mon, 26 May 2008 12:46:43 +0800

heck..that mega church is bsing 100%

my 1st visit to CHC taught me to be greedy in material stuff. they got this ang moh speaker to speak.very smooth talker.

teach us to give more ($$ obviuously) to the church and God will return us more. even gave us a story on a fisherman with 2 pins .every fish he caught will be measured against that 2 pins.fish bigger than that will be thrown out.

eventually people got curious and ask him why.his answer is simple. the 2 pins marked the size of his fryin pan.big fishes cant fit in so he throws them back.so people asks him why doesnt he jus change a bigger pan to cook the bigger fish..

in the end..that speaker kept giving "anecdotes" that certain members gave a big amount of $$ to the church. and they got some bigger rewards from God...

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Icemoon @ Sun, 04 May 2008 19:03:33 +0800

Icemoon — Sun, 04 May 2008 19:03:33 +0800

thanks for contributing to the rating, both of you. lol

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Mrlimkopi @ Sun, 04 May 2008 15:50:27 +0800

Mrlimkopi — Sun, 04 May 2008 15:50:27 +0800

sori that I mis-understood you....

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Chin Eng @ Sun, 04 May 2008 15:38:23 +0800

Chin Eng — Sun, 04 May 2008 15:38:23 +0800

Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:

Chin Eng,

Perhaps, you missed the point somehow....I am not against giving testimony. If you says you are missed by a runaway car by an inch and you believed that it was God's grace that saved you, I don't see what's wrong.

....

Trust this make sense.

actually, i think you are missing my point....

i was responding to durotar... i think it is safe to assume that we (you and i) are in agreement to most of the points.

you quotation of my example about the runaway car - you are saying exactly the same thing i am saying.

your example about whether God is cheating the bank or not - it is also an echo between you and i - God does not bend his laws to serve men's needs.

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Mrlimkopi @ Sun, 04 May 2008 11:16:46 +0800

Mrlimkopi — Sun, 04 May 2008 11:16:46 +0800

Chin Eng,

Perhaps, you missed the point somehow....I am not against giving testimony. If you says you are missed by a runaway car by an inch and you believed that it was God's grace that saved you, I don't see what's wrong.

Going back to the main issue of this thread. The fact is that such a thing happened in Singapore....anyone who has taken a loan with any bank will know that there are proper documentations....in case of a housing loan, there are title deeds filed with governmemt agencies, income tax etc..... Do you really think it can happen?

How did $300,000.00 disappear from the bank? What happen to the banking system, government agencies etc..?

With God everything is possible but.....God don't cheat.....

Another point of thought....will God be in cahoot with anyone to make legitimate money disappear from the bank? In this case, the woman's gain is at the expense of someone else.....the bank and their shareholders....right? God will never cheat and go contradict his own teachings.

The most important point is, why did the church allow such a highly suspected testimony in the first place? Of course they know before hand as the letter was projectedd on screen. Perhaps, they are author of this testimony? I don't know and hopping someone who knows more about this will shed some light.....

Testimony are personal experiences with God but it's the responsibility of the church and it's leaders to ensure that suspected testimony are not allowed......and highly controversial ones are not allowed. And if they allow it, they must at least have verified it.

Trust this make sense.

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Chin Eng @ Sun, 04 May 2008 10:14:33 +0800

Chin Eng — Sun, 04 May 2008 10:14:33 +0800

Originally posted by Durotar:

Test everything, indeed. So who am I to judge whether the testimony is what God is really working through or not?

Once again, I feel that when we do stand before God, we are to account for all our words and actions, no? For me, I don't feel like I can judge that testimony, simply because I don't have the facts to conclude whether it's really God's miraculous intervention or not.

Of course, if you are convinced, and you have tested it and found it true/false, then good. I'm not against people criticising it if they choose to do so.

It's just I myself can't find any evidence of it being true or fake. Thus, I would reserve my judgment.

we need to go back to the needs and purposes of testimonies.

testimonies are not there for folks to do the on-up on others. testimonies are firstly suppose to be personal experiences. if i were to go on the sanctuary to testify that God save my life because a runaway car just missed me by an inch.... fine....

but, if i were to go there to impose my spiritual understand to others and want others to do the same.... then there will be issues... even though i may claim that God "spoke" through me....

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Chin Eng @ Sun, 04 May 2008 10:09:17 +0800

Chin Eng — Sun, 04 May 2008 10:09:17 +0800

Originally posted by Icemoon:

I suspect your wife must be beside you and her expression changed somewhat upon hearing that. :P

actually there's a whole bunch of us with travelling jobs who think that such "irresponsible prophecies" are quite harmful...

... and I think sometime after that, the pastor put a stop to such sharing.

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Icemoon @ Sun, 04 May 2008 00:17:17 +0800

Icemoon — Sun, 04 May 2008 00:17:17 +0800

Originally posted by Durotar:

Haha...Icemoon, I think we should take this to PMs...

Then how to increase rating?

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Durotar @ Sat, 03 May 2008 23:43:51 +0800

Durotar — Sat, 03 May 2008 23:43:51 +0800

Originally posted by Icemoon:

You did not reserve your judgement. You said generally you'd take it as the truth. :P

Haha...Icemoon, I think we should take this to PMs...

I did say "generally". Perhaps I am really bad at clarifying myself, as I am wont to do for many of my posts in sgforums; I apologise. Forgive me, ok?

You might then ask, why generally? My point of view is, why not? If a certain good thing happens to someone, who knows, it may really be from God.

For the example given, I said I can't find any evidence of it being true or fake. I can't see how it might be fake, but given the points raised by Mrlimkopi, it is also possible that it might not be true (as in not from God).

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Icemoon @ Sat, 03 May 2008 23:26:52 +0800

Icemoon — Sat, 03 May 2008 23:26:52 +0800

Originally posted by Durotar:

Test everything, indeed. So who am I to judge whether the testimony is what God is really working through or not?

It's just I myself can't find any evidence of it being true or fake. Thus, I would reserve my judgment.

You did not reserve your judgement. You said generally you'd take it as the truth. :P

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Durotar @ Sat, 03 May 2008 23:14:34 +0800

Durotar — Sat, 03 May 2008 23:14:34 +0800

Originally posted by Icemoon:

Actually this mentality is not what Scripture teaches in general, isnt it?

If those are not the truth , it may be too late by the time the "liars" face judgement. By then, the lie might have perpetuated and affected many people.

Test everything, indeed. So who am I to judge whether the testimony is what God is really working through or not?

Once again, I feel that when we do stand before God, we are to account for all our words and actions, no? For me, I don't feel like I can judge that testimony, simply because I don't have the facts to conclude whether it's really God's miraculous intervention or not.

Of course, if you are convinced, and you have tested it and found it true/false, then good. I'm not against people criticising it if they choose to do so.

It's just I myself can't find any evidence of it being true or fake. Thus, I would reserve my judgment.

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Icemoon @ Sat, 03 May 2008 23:10:36 +0800

Icemoon — Sat, 03 May 2008 23:10:36 +0800

Originally posted by Durotar:

I would be careful in saying this is not God's doing. Of course, I would also be careful to say that this is God's doing. Generally, I'd take it as the truth. If it isn't, then the people responsible will have to answer God when we all stand before Him.

Similarly, unless I have the facts, I wouldn't want to call something that God might have moved in not of God.

Actually this mentality is not what Scripture teaches in general, isnt it?

1Thess 5:

²⁰Do not despise the words of prophets,^* ²¹but test everything; hold fast to what is good;

If those are not the truth , it may be too late by the time the "liars" face judgement. By then, the lie might have perpetuated and affected many people.

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Icemoon @ Sat, 03 May 2008 22:59:19 +0800

Icemoon — Sat, 03 May 2008 22:59:19 +0800

Originally posted by Chin Eng:

One time, one lady went up to the sanctuary and claimed that God had told here that a man with a travelling job in the congregation is having an affair. But she gives no names. How do you think folks like me, who have a travelling job look? Some of us just looked at each other and went, "what the heck was that?"

I suspect your wife must be beside you and her expression changed somewhat upon hearing that. :P

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Durotar @ Sat, 03 May 2008 22:46:43 +0800

Durotar — Sat, 03 May 2008 22:46:43 +0800

I would be careful in saying this is not God's doing. Of course, I would also be careful to say that this is God's doing. Generally, I'd take it as the truth. If it isn't, then the people responsible will have to answer God when we all stand before Him.

Similarly, unless I have the facts, I wouldn't want to call something that God might have moved in not of God.

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Mrlimkopi @ Thu, 01 May 2008 10:58:14 +0800

Mrlimkopi — Thu, 01 May 2008 10:58:14 +0800

You missed the point.....the point is cheating is not right and nothing can justify that. If you says thou shall not commit murder and murder and killing is different, then, you are saying it is ok to kill someone but not murder. Just playing with words. At the end, it is the same thing.

It is going to be hard to argue about soldiers killing enemies in the battle field (which is not the point here) but the Church is dead against going to war for any reason - same as Christ's teaching - to love your neighbour.

In this case, it is about "making money disappear from the bank".....if you own the shares of that bank, you are being cheated - right ?

God never contradict himself and will never ever do anything that is wrong. That is the point. Any if the church allow questionable testimony, I think this raise some questions about that Church or it's leaders too - right ?

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by googoomuck @ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:18:01 +0800

googoomuck — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:18:01 +0800

Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:

googoomuck

If that is how you look at it, it's fine.

Then a muderer says that God send him to kill, then he should be set free since everything is created by God and belonged to God. Man are just his steward and the murderer is just doing God's will? Shuold we sing praises of the murderer in church too?

I agree and believed that God is the creator of everything (seen and unseen) and the 10 commandment and all the teachings in the Bible are there for a reason. Human sin but God don't. Trust all Christians agree on this.

We should not blend the Christian faith to justify possible wrongs committed by man. Instead, we should use the wisdom that God has given to differentiate between the right and wrong. Hope this is acceptable to you.

You are talking about different things. Wealth is about money or assets. It's how you make use of the wealth that's entrusted to you.

Murder and killing is different.

Thou shall not commit murder.

For example, soldiers don't murder their enemies in battle. They kill them.

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Mrlimkopi @ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:00:01 +0800

Mrlimkopi — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:00:01 +0800

Originally posted by googoomuck:

How can God, who is the creator of the universe, cheats a bank when everything on earth belongs to Him? Man are just the stewards of His wealth. Of course non-Christians do not think so.

googoomuck

If that is how you look at it, it's fine.

Then a muderer says that God send him to kill, then he should be set free since everything is created by God and belonged to God. Man are just his steward and the murderer is just doing God's will? Shuold we sing praises of the murderer in church too?

I agree and believed that God is the creator of everything (seen and unseen) and the 10 commandment and all the teachings in the Bible are there for a reason. Human sin but God don't. Trust all Christians agree on this.

We should not blend the Christian faith to justify possible wrongs committed by man. Instead, we should use the wisdom that God has given to differentiate between the right and wrong. Hope this is acceptable to you.

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Mrlimkopi @ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:51:20 +0800

Mrlimkopi — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:51:20 +0800

The point is.....the church should not allow any testimony unless they are convinced that they are true......

Maybe a person who is terminally sick (with medical proof) and was cured by prayers from whoever and medically proved that is recovered, by all means sing praises to God in church.

But stories such as this should not even be allowed unless they are proven. If so, we like to know which bank did God cheated? Will MAS or the bank investigate and let us know that indeed there was a miracle? Absurb right?

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Miracles&Prophecies @ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:52:29 +0800

Miracles&Prophecies — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:52:29 +0800

Originally posted by Chin Eng:

...

In some churches, pastors, too are over-zealous in such claims and, yes, it annoys me no end because of the irresponsible and unbiblical claims of these people.

One time, one lady went up to the sanctuary and claimed that God had told here that a man with a travelling job in the congregation is having an affair. But she gives no names. How do you think folks like me, who have a travelling job look? Some of us just looked at each other and went, "what the heck was that?"

Also many churches have very young impressionable Christians who will accept everything at face value, and merge these claims with their own, probably, non-theological understanding of scripture and come up with conclusions that will make themselves happy.

There's always such thing as false prophets. Oh how I hate them. I'm not saying that people who do such thing as proclaiming to hear God speaks to them are surely false prophets or suffering from delusional illness but I just can't help feeling that it is best to approach the individual rather than acting to show off that they knew which makes it seems more likely that what they're telling is not true because it left so many suspicions. To think that the Holy spirit would raise suspicions instead of harmony is very unlikely. In event where people are healed it's okay to speak to the crowd like what the Carmelites do here in Jakarta in Mass healing and adoration sessions. But for other than good news or personal stuffs it's best to approach the individual so that he understood that God cares for what he has done and He knows thus making the person more repentable. As for the reason that God didn't specifiy who exactly well that's kind of odd surely because from my own experience God do tell a tell tale who that person is or at least in what direction he's standing at the moment thus you would be able to know who the person is. But I realize it's different for everyone so...

Back to topic,

In many cases I've heard and read when God gives help the amount of money would be no less or more than what was needed(I haven't read nor heard surplus God send). Either that or the timing could not be better or both. It's not always about money. It could be food for example where the amount of food pack exactly matches that of the attending congregation. The source of these wonderful gifts are always known/that of man. Be it a long time past friend, church-friend, distant contact or could be your own neigbors. In the end it also needs faith to believe these are genuinely God send. Because you could always cry "coincidence" or "what a lucky stroke". These are also mostly come as a response to prayer but not always the case. But always there's some kind of hopelessness in every case that without these lucky intervention nothing could be done.

The most outstanding testimony I've heard is that when this family went bankrupt and had to sell their only home. A stranger bought the house and gave it back to them!!!. The stranger plainly told them that God asked him to give the house to her family so he did. Well he didn't give the house back immediately but he let the family stayed in the house for about a year or so without paying for rent. After a year or so he then gave the house back to that family.

Why God never give me a Ferrari or two?? LOL

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Miracles&Prophecies @ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:45:52 +0800

Miracles&Prophecies — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:45:52 +0800

Hey my first reply to this thread has been deleted. WTF?? Scared by my post? LOL

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Chin Eng @ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:04:06 +0800

Chin Eng — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:04:06 +0800

Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:

Chin Eng,

I agree with you God does not contradict himself.

One should wonder why the church even allow this as a testimony... There must be something about the leadership of the church. If they are responsible, they should verify the truthfulness before allowing....perhaps, they are the author of the story....I don't know...

Hope people will be careful as I know that there are many teaching and doing of this church which is not in line with what I know of the bible. Somehow, they simply twist and mis-quote the bible to justify what they says.

So sad to see a friend so taken by them even when it is obvious that some things they says and do are questionable...

It is quite difficult if a congregation decide to have the a-testimony-a-week session. There is censorship in such matters and any attempt to control or check can be seen as an attempt to prevent God from working.

In some churches, pastors, too are over-zealous in such claims and, yes, it annoys me no end because of the irresponsible and unbiblical claims of these people.

One time, one lady went up to the sanctuary and claimed that God had told here that a man with a travelling job in the congregation is having an affair. But she gives no names. How do you think folks like me, who have a travelling job look? Some of us just looked at each other and went, "what the heck was that?"

Also many churches have very young impressionable Christians who will accept everything at face value, and merge these claims with their own, probably, non-theological understanding of scripture and come up with conclusions that will make themselves happy.

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by googoomuck @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:34:04 +0800

googoomuck — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 21:34:04 +0800

Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:

Of course I don't believe but it hurts to see a friend who is so blinded to even believed that God will do such a thing - cheating a bank ?

Posting so that people will think and consider where they go for prayers and look out for where their children are going....

It amazes me that so many people are so brain washed that they no longer think but simply accept what they have been told as the truth... so sad.

How can God, who is the creator of the universe, cheats a bank when everything on earth belongs to Him? Man are just the stewards of His wealth. Of course non-Christians do not think so.

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Mrlimkopi @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:27:41 +0800

Mrlimkopi — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:27:41 +0800

Chin Eng,

I agree with you God does not contradict himself.

One should wonder why the church even allow this as a testimony... There must be something about the leadership of the church. If they are responsible, they should verify the truthfulness before allowing....perhaps, they are the author of the story....I don't know...

Hope people will be careful as I know that there are many teaching and doing of this church which is not in line with what I know of the bible. Somehow, they simply twist and mis-quote the bible to justify what they says.

So sad to see a friend so taken by them even when it is obvious that some things they says and do are questionable...

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Chin Eng @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:00:58 +0800

Chin Eng — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:00:58 +0800

When listening or giving testimony we must realise one thing: God does not contradict himself.

If one is rescued from one's predicament at the expense of something else, one can safely conclude that it is not God.

It's like a story I heard sometime back..... a girl was rescued from being raped and murdered by two thugs because there were two angels guarding her home. The thugs then went on and rape and murder some other girl.

Now, isn't stupid!

Did God Cancel her debt ? replied by Mrlimkopi @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:48:50 +0800

Mrlimkopi — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:48:50 +0800

Originally posted by googoomuck:

Why are you asking?

For a person who has no faith, does it matter if this is indeed a miracle? Don't believe it lah.

Of course I don't believe but it hurts to see a friend who is so blinded to even believed that God will do such a thing - cheating a bank ?

Posting so that people will think and consider where they go for prayers and look out for where their children are going....

It amazes me that so many people are so brain washed that they no longer think but simply accept what they have been told as the truth... so sad.

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