C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by dragon_stone @ Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:33:25 +0800

dragon_stone — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:33:25 +0800

Originally posted by Spnw07:

"I have observed that there are many people (mostly non-Buddhists) who think that ‘Cause and effect’ is a term coined by Buddhists to restrict their way of life or something is born out of delusional or fanatic thinking."

I in a bit of Taoism. In Taoism, there is also a cause and effect, just like yin&yang, positive&negative,etc...eventhough the practice can be to any lay person that it tends to frighten people to do good, example; punishment met out when the dead person goes to different levels of hades (tongues being cut for telling lies ) So if there is cause for telling lies, the effect or risk of tongue cutting upon the cosmic karma.
All religions are good or taught us to be good. It's just that the material needs and wants that humans are sometime disillusion into going to the wrong path.

人之初，性本善。。。

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by Herzog_Zwei @ Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:09:53 +0800

Herzog_Zwei — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:09:53 +0800

The real true path; no true cause and no true effect, all phenomenom are false.

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by sinweiy @ Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:17:59 +0800

sinweiy — Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:17:59 +0800

Originally posted by Spnw07:
Observing precepts brings Single-pointedness of mind and calmness. And this leads to the awakening of inner wisdom. Perfectly correct, as this is what the Buddha has said.

However,

well, u know...the word jie can also mean discipline/focus of Mind and body in a broader sense. not just the vinaya code.
watching the mind can be jie/discipline/focus. nianfo can be jie/discipline/focus. doing something over and over again can be jie/discipline/focus.
all and all 84000 kind of jie/discipline/focus. hence it's whether u know how to zhuan jing jie(turn any situation into practice) or not.

/\

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by Spnw07 @ Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:33:48 +0800

Spnw07 — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:33:48 +0800

Originally posted by sinweiy:

i just just heard, from Master Chin Kung regarding this.
http://www.amtb-aus.org/ ---1893a
maybe He know i was asking a question.

Old Master said there's no other way for these people, but jie ding hui.

/\

Hi, most of my vcd collection are those of Master Chin Kung. So I have watched and heard that too.

Observing precepts brings Single-pointedness of mind and calmness. And this leads to the awakening of inner wisdom. Perfectly correct, as this is what the Buddha has said.

However, do note that there are others Masters who confess humbly in their vcds that even they could not constantly ensure that their observation of precepts is perfect at all times. And this is something that is true for those who have more than 10 years of cultivation as a monk.

Those who study precepts and their correct observation in detail will know that even if a precept is carelessly broken, confession and repentance will not totally ensure that you will not suffer from negative karma.

There are some scriptures where the Buddha directly mentioned that they will fall into the 3 evil realms and did not give further instructions on what can be done to help them avoid such fate.

For example, if you are a monk and you killed a live fish during a famine to eat, you have broken the precept of non-killing and from what I remember from the dvd titled: The life of Master Jian Zhen (a well-know Master in the teaching of precepts during Ming or Ching Dynasty, I can't remember), he could not forgive that disciple of his, who killed a live fish to eat when they were stranded on an island.

This is how serious it is for both monks and layman who formally undertake to observe precepts. I'm not saying this to frighten or discourage, but it should be made known to all, so that they can choose wisely whether to follow or not. Whatever they choose, they should not influence others with their views.

Again the above is a personal view and nothing more.

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by sinweiy @ Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:12:55 +0800

sinweiy — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:12:55 +0800

Originally posted by Spnw07:
medium rooted,

i just just heard, from Master Chin Kung regarding this.
http://www.amtb-aus.org/ ---1893a
maybe He know i was asking a question.

Old Master said there's no other way for these people, but jie ding hui.

/\

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by Spnw07 @ Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:56:01 +0800

Spnw07 — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:56:01 +0800

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

In fact... like I said, my Taiwanese teacher never read any other sutra than Diamond Sutra. But over the past decade of teaching, his students has been telling him and asking him things about the sutras they read. So he know/heard a few things about them. He did not read the sutras, all of them are told to him by his students.

Indeed, you are lucky to be able to come across such an Enlightened teacher.

May you progress steadily along the way and one day attain true wisdom and compassion for all.

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by An Eternal Now @ Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:37:11 +0800

An Eternal Now — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:37:11 +0800

Originally posted by Spnw07:

We have heard so many Buddha's verses, but does anybody know anyone who has attained the 1st stage of sainthood? Anyway, how does one know, whether the person has attained it unless he/she comes before an Arahant or a Buddha who is the best person to judge?

Does merely having a peaceful appearance and doing good deeds like any Buddhist or Venerable would do means that you have attained sainthood or Arahanthood?

Buddhism isn't about doing good deeds alone, it's about aiming to be liberated from countless rebirths. That truly marks the primary aim of Buddhism. If not, every religion teaches you to do good, why should a free-thinker want to learn more about Buddhism?

I do agree that liberation is the uniqueness of Buddhist teachings.

And yes certainly... I know and met many enlightened practitioners. The strict criteria is by their wisdom and insight, not by mere appearances.

My Taiwanese teacher used to tell us how to spot an enlightened person. I can't remember the exact words he said, but basically such a person has no obstruction of wisdom, he knows dharma in a most thorough way from direct experience/insight. There is nothing you ask him that he will not know in regards to dharma, liberation, practice, prajna wisdom. He used to ask one of his knowledgeable student a dharma question... at first he can answer quite well, but after that my teacher asked him one further question (can't remember what was it but quite interesting), he completely stumbled. There are other such cases. But for an enlightened person, this will not happen.

For people like me, my experience and wisdom is very limited.. so when it comes to basic teachings I may be able to answer, but there are many things I have to ask my enlightened teachers and friends.

All these does not mean that an enlightened person has read a lot of books. My Taiwanese teacher is illiterate, to read the whole Diamond Sutra it took him 4 years (if I remember correctly) and he had to keep refering to the dictionary. But every verse he carefully contemplate until he perfectly understood the dharma essence from direct experience. In some ways, he was just like the 6th Patriarch Hui Neng, who was illiterate but attained enlightenment after hearing the Diamond Sutra.

In his whole life, he only read Diamond Sutra and no others, but because his insights and wisdom is the deepest among all my Master's disciples, my Master made him his dharma successor in dharma transmission and he is the only person asked by my Master to give Dharma transmission worldwide prior to his passing away in 1996.

But because he had attained great enlightenment, he can answer you any single question -- you can throw him any verse from any sutra in the Tripitaka, he can understand and explain clearly to you. Even those very chim sounding one, he will at once grasp its essence and 'meaning' and be able to explain in a way that is understandable to the common lays. The whole tripitaka is within his grasp.

As our forummer Thusness (who attended one of his teachings before and found deep clarity in it) said,

(4:52 PM) Thusness: similarly u will understand better when u read any sutra now.
(4:52 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:52 PM) Thusness: teacher chen understand clearly from direct experience. Both non-duality and emptiness.
(4:52 PM) Thusness: so for him, there is no problem.
(4:53 PM) Thusness: as for explanation sake, it is a matter of conventional training.

(3:31 PM) Thusness: ur Teacher Chen dunno much teachings, he knows actual experiences
(3:31 PM) Thusness: what he communicated is experiential truth of practice.
(3:32 PM) Thusness: u must treat it seriously

(3:32 PM) Thusness: teachings are no more than 'words' and papers
(3:32 PM) Thusness: what is there for u to acquire that u can't acquire?
(3:33 PM) Thusness: but have any of his essence flow to u?
(3:33 PM) Thusness: if u want to know his essence, go beyond all conceptual grasp.
(3:34 PM) Thusness: a great teacher is ready to share with u his essence and is readily accessible, u should treasure whatever he said.
(3:34 PM) Thusness: your master has choosen him not for no reasons.
(3:34 PM) Thusness: do u find his 'words' full of clarity and wisdom?
(3:34 PM) AEN: yea
(3:35 PM) Thusness: even with one speech, i thoroughly see his insights of non-duality and emptiness nature.
(3:35 PM) Thusness: except that what he said is not understood or appreciated.
(3:36 PM) Thusness: everyone hears differently

In fact... like I said, my Taiwanese teacher never read any other sutra than Diamond Sutra. But over the past decade of teaching, his students has been telling him and asking him things about the sutras they read. So he know/heard a few things about them. He did not read the sutras, all of them are told to him by his students.

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by Spnw07 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:18:45 +0800

Spnw07 — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:18:45 +0800

Originally posted by sinweiy:

true, that's quite problematic, for medium rooted. we are not highly rooted like Great Masters nor low like Cunda.
i was just giving an example btw.

/\

Yes, your example was good. I have no issues with that. I'm just expressing my deep concern for those who are medium rooted, as the capacity or tendency to progress or fail is very unstable. Some find that they are progressing, but allow their progress to go to their head. Some find that they are not progressing, and so wallow in frustration.

The low-rooted ones will be more stable in the sense that they are more simple and honest in thinking, generally speaking. But of course, they could also experience what the medium rooted ones has experienced.

The medium rooted and low-rooted ones are, in my humble opinion, the main groups that Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva is most concerned about. This is also supported by verses uttered by the both Bodhisattva and Buddha.

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by sinweiy @ Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:33:49 +0800

sinweiy — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:33:49 +0800

Originally posted by Spnw07:
However, the fact is most of us are educated to some extent and we live in a world which emphasises intelligence, creativity and world-savvyness.

true, that's quite problematic, for medium rooted. we are not highly rooted like Great Masters nor low like Cunda.
i was just giving an example btw.

/\

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by Spnw07 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:15:43 +0800

Spnw07 — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:15:43 +0800

Originally posted by sinweiy:
From a Teaching by Surya Das:

One of my favorite stories is about the Arhat Chunda. He was quite stupid. When his brother became a monk, Chunda just wanted to do what his brother did. So he went to Ananda, Buddha's attendant. But holy Ananda said, "Sorry. You're too stupid." Ananda thought this kid was too stupid to become a monk because he couldn't remember the rules, the chants, the teachings. So the elder brother and his stupid little brother went to the Buddha, for the Buddha was extremely wise, kind, and compassionate. He scanned the past lives of this young, stupid boy, Chunda. He saw in there one tiny root of merit that could help him get enlightened. He said it didn't matter how dull-minded he was. It didn't matter that he couldn't memorize anything. It didn't matter if he could remember even one rule. The Buddha said to Ananda, "Ananda, you're not the Buddha, so you couldn't see that this kid can get enlightened. But I'm the Buddha and I'm going to ordain him because he can get enlightened. He has one good root of merit from a past life. He can do it, too. Watch over this little child." (This story always brings tears to my eyes.)

So Buddha ordained the kid. The kid couldn't remember even one rule, or how to wear his robes. You know, it's complicated to be a monk. All the monks were studying and memorizing. There were a lot of teachings. There were 253 rules of monastic ordination. But the stupid, youthful Chunda couldn't remember anything.

Finally, the brethren gave him the job of cleaning off the sandals of the monks. Chunda cleaned the sandals while the other monks were getting teachings. Since there weren't any books in those days, 2500 years ago in India, nothing was written down; the monks had to memorize the teachings. Chunda wanted to practice like the other monks, and get this enlightenment thing he heard about every day. So he asked the Buddha how he could get this enlightenment thing. The Buddha said, "When you're scraping mud and sweeping the floors, just think, 'Now I am purifying all the obscurations of the mind.'" So he gave him a little two-line verse. "With each cleaning of the sandals, I am cleaning off the obscurations of the shining, perfect mind." The Buddha asked him to repeat it. He repeated it. The Buddha said, "Can you remember that?" He said, "Yes."

Then dumb Chunda went out and tried to repeat the verse. "With each scraping of the dirt, I am cleaning..." And he couldn't remember it. But he had good karma and had gentle Ananda around to remind him of the verse. Still, Chunda forgot again. Then Sariputra the learned came out, and Chunda asked him to remind him. Finally, the Buddha came back and said to Chunda, "Are you cleaning the sandals?" He said, "Yes." Buddha asked, "Are you cleaning the dust off the floor?" Chunda said, "Yes." And Buddha asked, "Have you cleaned the obscurations off the shining, perfect mind?" Suddenly Chunda was enlightened! He realized that the sandals with the dirt are still the sandals. The floor even with the dust is still the floor. Everything is just as it is. He became an arhat, a fully liberated sage.

In those days, wherever the Buddha went, the people would always try to serve lunch, the main meal of the day, to him and the arhats. They thought if they gave Buddha lunch they would get the most merit, and if they gave the arhats lunch they would get almost as much merit. But if they couldn't catch any arhats, they would feed the ordinary monks and get a little less merit. Everyone knew how stupid Chunda was, and they didn't believe he was an enlightened arhat. But wherever Buddha went, he saved a seat for Chunda, because he said he was the purest-minded, least proud arhat. Purest-minded because he didn't know anything. And least proud because he was so simple, so humble, so undemanding and easy to be with.

Unfortunately, we are not that stupid. We know too much. Or should I say, we think so much, we know so little. If we could just be ourselves, and take the path that is genuinely for us, it would be so easy. Imagine if Chunda was trying to become a Buddhist scholar, he never would have gotten enlightened. But he was content to clean the monks' shoes because he loved his brother and Buddha and the other monks. And it had to be done, so he did it. And he had a little teaching, a little verse that fit into that. That's why Thich Nhat Hanh gives everybody a little verse. He has a little verse for eating, for waking up, for toilet, for going to sleep, because one little verse can be enough to fully awaken you to the fullness and richness of the present moment.

[b]Spiritual life has nothing to do with how smart you are. In fact, being smart can be an obstacle. You can become proud and have more clutter in your brain.

/\[/b]

I remembered the story about Cunda too. Yes, I agree that being smart does not necessarily guarantee success in spiritual awakening. However, the fact is most of us are educated to some extent and we live in a world which emphasises intelligence, creativity and world-savvyness.

We can't possibly expect all who are said to be thinking too much to regress to Cunda's very, very simple way of thinking, for we are not Cunda, and Cunda is not us.

We know so little but think too much because of many reasons. The easiest way to explain is that we have not accumulated any spiritual wisdom in our past lives, hence even when we come across the Dharma now, we are still full of doubts.

Among Buddha's many disciples, not all become Arahats. Those that do is because their spirtual wisdom accumulated from previous lives has ripened and the Buddha merely knew what and when to say to each of them to give them a push in the right direction.

Most however, could achieve 1st stage of sainthood, with or without the Buddha personally teaching them any verse. They heard the Buddha's verse from others and they just understood the Way on their own after spending some time in cultivation.

We have heard so many Buddha's verses, but does anybody know anyone who has attained the 1st stage of sainthood? Anyway, how does one know, whether the person has attained it unless he/she comes before an Arahant or a Buddha who is the best person to judge?

Does merely having a peaceful appearance and doing good deeds like any Buddhist or Venerable would do means that you have attained sainthood or Arahanthood?

Buddhism isn't about doing good deeds alone, it's about aiming to be liberated from countless rebirths. That truly marks the primary aim of Buddhism. If not, every religion teaches you to do good, why should a free-thinker want to learn more about Buddhism?

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by Spnw07 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:55:11 +0800

Spnw07 — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:55:11 +0800

Originally posted by sinweiy:

PL's sole advantage, is u don't have to understand the abstract concepts.

Are the Mind-only Pure Land and the Self-nature Amitabha the same as or different from the Western Pure Land and Amitabha in the Pure Land ?

It is because the Mind-only Pure Land exists that we are reborn in the Pure Land of the West. If the mind is not pure, it is impossible to achieve rebirth in the Pure Land. Even when those who have committed cardinal transgressions achieve rebirth through ten recitations, such rebirth is due to their reciting the Buddha's name with a pure mind, thus eliciting a response from Amitabha Buddha. Ordinary people generally think that if the Pure Land is Mind-Only, then it does not exist. This is the understanding of demons and externalists. Such a deluded view, which appears correct but is in reality wrong, affects more than half of all people and causes practitioners to forfeit true benefits.

It is precisely because of the Self-Nature Amitabha that the practitioner must recite the name of Buddha Amitabha of the West seeking rebirth in the Pure Land - so as to achieve the Self-Nature Amitabha through gradual cultivation. If he merely grasps at the Self-Nature Amitabha but does not recite the name of Buddha Amitabha of the West, he cannot achieve immediate escape from Birth and death - not even if he is truly awakened, much less if (like most people who ask this question) he is pretentious and just indulges in empty talk without engaging in practice.

Thus the answer to your question [are the mind-Only Pure Land and the Self-Nature Amitabha the same as or different from the Western Pure Land and Amitabha in the Pure Land?] is that they are one yet two before Buddhahood is attained, two yet one after Buddhahood is attained. (From Pure-Land Zen ,Zen Pure-Land, Letters from Patriarch Yin Kuang. Page 108 - 111)

[b]Also in Both the Lankavatara and Esoteric Adornment Sutras Stated:
"It is better to be attached to Existence, though the attachment may be as big as Mount Sumeru, than to be attached to Emptiness, though the attachment may be as small as a mustard seed."

This was declared by the Bhagavan with the meaning – “The view of a 'person' by some people, is preferable to sunyata wrongly apprehended by others.” – Treatise on the Stages of Spiritual Practice, Stage of the Bodhisattvas, Reality.

so those Ah gong, Ah ma who are uneducated while grasping a literal Pureland is still correct. but they must also sincerly practice non-stop Nianfo, for at least 3 years to really penetrate the transcendent wisdom of our true nature. when the skill is right, they' also realise the sense of renoucing.

“When the heart is released from clinging,” said the Buddha, “then consciousness does not land anywhere. That state, I tell you, is without sorrow, afflication or despair.” ---Ajahn Amaro

/\[/b]

I have read about the above before, particularly the one that says it's better to be attached to existence than to emptiness.

Thanks for taking the effort to let me read about it in English.

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by sinweiy @ Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:44:32 +0800

sinweiy — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:44:32 +0800

From a Teaching by Surya Das:

One of my favorite stories is about the Arhat Chunda. He was quite stupid. When his brother became a monk, Chunda just wanted to do what his brother did. So he went to Ananda, Buddha's attendant. But holy Ananda said, "Sorry. You're too stupid." Ananda thought this kid was too stupid to become a monk because he couldn't remember the rules, the chants, the teachings. So the elder brother and his stupid little brother went to the Buddha, for the Buddha was extremely wise, kind, and compassionate. He scanned the past lives of this young, stupid boy, Chunda. He saw in there one tiny root of merit that could help him get enlightened. He said it didn't matter how dull-minded he was. It didn't matter that he couldn't memorize anything. It didn't matter if he could remember even one rule. The Buddha said to Ananda, "Ananda, you're not the Buddha, so you couldn't see that this kid can get enlightened. But I'm the Buddha and I'm going to ordain him because he can get enlightened. He has one good root of merit from a past life. He can do it, too. Watch over this little child." (This story always brings tears to my eyes.)

So Buddha ordained the kid. The kid couldn't remember even one rule, or how to wear his robes. You know, it's complicated to be a monk. All the monks were studying and memorizing. There were a lot of teachings. There were 253 rules of monastic ordination. But the stupid, youthful Chunda couldn't remember anything.

Finally, the brethren gave him the job of cleaning off the sandals of the monks. Chunda cleaned the sandals while the other monks were getting teachings. Since there weren't any books in those days, 2500 years ago in India, nothing was written down; the monks had to memorize the teachings. Chunda wanted to practice like the other monks, and get this enlightenment thing he heard about every day. So he asked the Buddha how he could get this enlightenment thing. The Buddha said, "When you're scraping mud and sweeping the floors, just think, 'Now I am purifying all the obscurations of the mind.'" So he gave him a little two-line verse. "With each cleaning of the sandals, I am cleaning off the obscurations of the shining, perfect mind." The Buddha asked him to repeat it. He repeated it. The Buddha said, "Can you remember that?" He said, "Yes."

Then dumb Chunda went out and tried to repeat the verse. "With each scraping of the dirt, I am cleaning..." And he couldn't remember it. But he had good karma and had gentle Ananda around to remind him of the verse. Still, Chunda forgot again. Then Sariputra the learned came out, and Chunda asked him to remind him. Finally, the Buddha came back and said to Chunda, "Are you cleaning the sandals?" He said, "Yes." Buddha asked, "Are you cleaning the dust off the floor?" Chunda said, "Yes." And Buddha asked, "Have you cleaned the obscurations off the shining, perfect mind?" Suddenly Chunda was enlightened! He realized that the sandals with the dirt are still the sandals. The floor even with the dust is still the floor. Everything is just as it is. He became an arhat, a fully liberated sage.

In those days, wherever the Buddha went, the people would always try to serve lunch, the main meal of the day, to him and the arhats. They thought if they gave Buddha lunch they would get the most merit, and if they gave the arhats lunch they would get almost as much merit. But if they couldn't catch any arhats, they would feed the ordinary monks and get a little less merit. Everyone knew how stupid Chunda was, and they didn't believe he was an enlightened arhat. But wherever Buddha went, he saved a seat for Chunda, because he said he was the purest-minded, least proud arhat. Purest-minded because he didn't know anything. And least proud because he was so simple, so humble, so undemanding and easy to be with.

Unfortunately, we are not that stupid. We know too much. Or should I say, we think so much, we know so little. If we could just be ourselves, and take the path that is genuinely for us, it would be so easy. Imagine if Chunda was trying to become a Buddhist scholar, he never would have gotten enlightened. But he was content to clean the monks' shoes because he loved his brother and Buddha and the other monks. And it had to be done, so he did it. And he had a little teaching, a little verse that fit into that. That's why Thich Nhat Hanh gives everybody a little verse. He has a little verse for eating, for waking up, for toilet, for going to sleep, because one little verse can be enough to fully awaken you to the fullness and richness of the present moment.

Spiritual life has nothing to do with how smart you are. In fact, being smart can be an obstacle. You can become proud and have more clutter in your brain.

/\

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by sinweiy @ Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:40:25 +0800

sinweiy — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:40:25 +0800

Originally posted by Spnw07:
Not wrong, but not easy for everyone to understand the abstract concepts of 'Your heart is Pureland when it has regained its primordial awareness'.

PL's sole advantage, is u don't have to understand the abstract concepts.

Are the Mind-only Pure Land and the Self-nature Amitabha the same as or different from the Western Pure Land and Amitabha in the Pure Land ?

It is because the Mind-only Pure Land exists that we are reborn in the Pure Land of the West. If the mind is not pure, it is impossible to achieve rebirth in the Pure Land. Even when those who have committed cardinal transgressions achieve rebirth through ten recitations, such rebirth is due to their reciting the Buddha's name with a pure mind, thus eliciting a response from Amitabha Buddha. Ordinary people generally think that if the Pure Land is Mind-Only, then it does not exist. This is the understanding of demons and externalists. Such a deluded view, which appears correct but is in reality wrong, affects more than half of all people and causes practitioners to forfeit true benefits.

It is precisely because of the Self-Nature Amitabha that the practitioner must recite the name of Buddha Amitabha of the West seeking rebirth in the Pure Land - so as to achieve the Self-Nature Amitabha through gradual cultivation. If he merely grasps at the Self-Nature Amitabha but does not recite the name of Buddha Amitabha of the West, he cannot achieve immediate escape from Birth and death - not even if he is truly awakened, much less if (like most people who ask this question) he is pretentious and just indulges in empty talk without engaging in practice.

Thus the answer to your question [are the mind-Only Pure Land and the Self-Nature Amitabha the same as or different from the Western Pure Land and Amitabha in the Pure Land?] is that they are one yet two before Buddhahood is attained, two yet one after Buddhahood is attained. (From Pure-Land Zen ,Zen Pure-Land, Letters from Patriarch Yin Kuang. Page 108 - 111)

Also in Both the Lankavatara and Esoteric Adornment Sutras Stated:
"It is better to be attached to Existence, though the attachment may be as big as Mount Sumeru, than to be attached to Emptiness, though the attachment may be as small as a mustard seed."

This was declared by the Bhagavan with the meaning – “The view of a 'person' by some people, is preferable to sunyata wrongly apprehended by others.” – Treatise on the Stages of Spiritual Practice, Stage of the Bodhisattvas, Reality.

so those Ah gong, Ah ma who are uneducated while grasping a literal Pureland is still correct. but they must also sincerly practice non-stop Nianfo, for at least 3 years to really penetrate the transcendent wisdom of our true nature. when the skill is right, they' also realise the sense of renoucing.

“When the heart is released from clinging,” said the Buddha, “then consciousness does not land anywhere. That state, I tell you, is without sorrow, afflication or despair.” ---Ajahn Amaro

/\

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by Spnw07 @ Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:26:33 +0800

Spnw07 — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:26:33 +0800

I understand my comments in this post so far are interpreted to be self-despising, weak-minded or lazy.

I cannot explain further other than to say that it is true we can all do it, we can all attempt to hold down our inner poisons, to practise the Buddha's teachings, but I'm talking about real life outcomes for average or below average practioners of Buddhism.

May I reiterate that I have no doubts about spiritual progress of the groups of people mentioned by AEN. Their spiritual seeds from their previous lives must have ripened and these various karmic conditions form the main basis for motivating them to start and maintain their present spiritual effort. As such they are able to experience progress in their current lifetimes.

My main concern is about those who are mentioned at the end of the Kstigarbha sutra, that such people in our human world, in the present Dharma-ending age, cannot maintain doing good throughout their entire lifetimes. They are mostly likely to give up at some point in time and some even fall to become evil people when they encountered negative environmental influences.

The intentions of all my comments, in essence, are never to give excuses for not putting in effort to practise the Buddha's teachings. It is more about those who will fall behind due to their karmic debts and poor spiritual intelligence.

This is not something that anyone or even the Buddha can help easily, for their past karmic debts and habits will be the main hindrances to their correct and complete understanding of the Dharma doors they first get to hear about and choose, hence leading to the situation described in the sutras that many will fall into evil realms in our present Dharma-ending age even if they did try practising the Dharma very diligently on their own, with or without teachers.

I'm not quoting something out of my own imagination. I'm quoting a serious situation reflected in the sutras about sentient beings whose karmic debts and habits are still very deeply-ingrained in the Dharma-ending age.

I still applaud and praise all those who achieve some form of realisation through their own spritual efforts, with guidance from teachers of course. But my concern is for a different group of sentient beings, so I hope I have not ruffled any feathers here.

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by An Eternal Now @ Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:48:26 +0800

An Eternal Now — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:48:26 +0800

Originally posted by Spnw07:

There are many who practise Pureland school and believe that all should be able to attain and maintain the ability of 'holding down' one's inner poisons as if placing a stone on the grass, but does that stop the grass from growing around it? Does that stop moss from growing on it?

If our inner poisons are like grass, something living and growing, but the Dharma door we choose and practise acts like a stone, non-living and non-growing, (be it due to the individual's lack of spiritual intelligence) then do we continue to place stones everywhere or on top of previous stones for the sake of achieving the effect of holding down the growth of grass?

I do not think 'holding down' is a good way in the long term for Pureland practioners of average or lower spiritual intelligence and will. Short-term, it is a good measure, a good guideline, but I don't believe in its long term effectiveness for the group I've just mentioned.

That stopping is only a stepping stone... it is a form of shamatha practice. That is using a single thought (nian) of Buddha to stop the 3 poisons from arising. It is like using the stone to stop the grass from growing... the poison is not uprooted because ignorance is not uprooted, merely suppressed due to the power of absorption.

When we develope insights, we will realise 'nian nian you jue'... then we will realise what is 'wu nian' (no-thought/no-mind)... the subject-object duality is resolved/seen through, the koan 'Who is chanting the Buddha?' is also understood, it is Buddha chanting Buddha. At this level, liberation, the 'grass' is uprooted... fundamental ignorance is uprooted.

Then finally 'wu wu nian' which refers more to the Mahayana path, one does not get stuck in that realisation and merely attain personal Nirvana, he practices the bodhisattva path.

pls read my master's article on 'nian, wu nian, wu wu nian': http://www.humanbliss.com.sg/blissful_articledetails.asp?articleNo=46

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by An Eternal Now @ Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:36:20 +0800

An Eternal Now — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:36:20 +0800

Originally posted by Spnw07:

I do understand the meaning that you explained above. However, my main point is that not all can even achieve and maintain that ability throughout their present lifetime.

Everyone can do it.. everyone's Buddha Nature is already wholly complete. We should not look down on ourselves.

The main thing is, what we learn, we practice. Every Buddha were once mortals like us, every enlightened being start from being mortals, practice, and attain enlightenment. SO we just should do the same instead of keep saying 'we can't do it.. we can't do it..' I mean if you don't start practicing, how do you know? By the way, there are lots of practitioners with real realisations still around, not only the great masters but ordinary practitioners, in this forum, in my dharma center (and not just my teacher), and I know many other places.

Everyone WILL eventually do it, will eventually attain enlightenment (some within this lifetime, some miss their opportunity and wait for many more lives), so why not start now?

Since our conditions to attain enlightenment is all there, we should cherish it and practice hard. Whether we attain practice the 8 fold path laid out so clearly is entirely up to us...

BTW if you practice, your practice will continue in your future lifetimes.

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by Spnw07 @ Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:23:46 +0800

Spnw07 — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:23:46 +0800

Originally posted by sinweiy:

"What is the Pureland really? The Pureland is one's own stainless primordial awareness. If, from moment to moment, you regain and retain your own primordial enlightened nature: that is the Pureland. Everything comes from your own mind. Understand that, remain there: that is the Pureland."

to me, Amitabha PL is Nirvana itself. no Amitabha PL, den no Nirvana.

There are four kinds of Nirvana equivalent to the 4 Abodes of PL:
Nirvana of pure, clear self-nature = Pure Abode of Good people and good Saints living together.
Nirvana with residue = Pure Temporary Abode with residue of Not Knowing, more for Arahants.
Nirvana without residue = Pure Abode of Permanent Reward, more for Bodhisattvas.
Nirvana of no dwelling = Pure Abode of Eternal Light and Tranquillity, more for Buddhas.

actually, what i mean by 'hold down' is not quite the same as severing the 3 poisons. 'hold down' is just like placing a stone on a growing grass. it's Temporary, while severing is the pulling out of the root of the grass.

saving all sentient beings is still very much the whole path is all about. it's the Essence of the 4 Bodhisattva's universe vow ie the First vow. the last 3 is just to support the First.
and the path is not about "no rebirth", in the sense that it's about 'extinction'. what for, Buddha go and seek for 'extinction'?

/\

I do understand the meaning that you explained above. However, my main point is that not all can even achieve and maintain that ability throughout their present lifetime.

The explanation you give concerning what is Pureland comes from interpreting Pureland through Dharma doors like Zen, Hua Yen, and Tian Tai.

Not wrong, but not easy for everyone to understand the abstract concepts of 'Your heart is Pureland when it has regained its primordial awareness'.

It may be possible to regain even a tiny ounce of that awareness, but next to almost possible for all who practise Buddhist teachings of most Dharma doors to maintain it.

There are many who practise Pureland school and believe that all should be able to attain and maintain the ability of 'holding down' one's inner poisons as if placing a stone on the grass, but does that stop the grass from growing around it? Does that stop moss from growing on it?

If our inner poisons are like grass, something living and growing, but the Dharma door we choose and practise acts like a stone, non-living and non-growing, (be it due to the individual's lack of spiritual intelligence) then do we continue to place stones everywhere or on top of previous stones for the sake of achieving the effect of holding down the growth of grass?

I do not think 'holding down' is a good way in the long term for Pureland practioners of average or lower spiritual intelligence and will. Short-term, it is a good measure, a good guideline, but I don't believe in its long term effectiveness for the group I've just mentioned.

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by Herzog_Zwei @ Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:40:54 +0800

Herzog_Zwei — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:40:54 +0800

Originally posted by Spnw07:

Some may be able to do it, and some not, before their time comes.

If everybody can attain the ability to hold down negative thoughts, feelings and addictions as described and that ability remains either unchanged or grows stronger with time before each individual's final end, then there would be no reincarnation or six realms of karmic existence.

May I go so far as to say that there wouldn't even be any need for Amitabha Buddha to save all sentient beings, from all realms of existence, with his 48 vows if the ability to hold down negative thoughts and habits is achievable by all in their own lifetime. Cos this will almost ensure that they will never, ever fall into the 3 evil realms again, starting from that particular lifetime when they have achieved that ability to a unshakeable level.

My deepest concern goes out to those who can't or don't even realise the important need to help themselves out of the endless cycles of rebirth. Or even if they can or do realise, they are unable to maintain the ability to 'hold down' from the point of starting to change all the way till their last breath.

The message of hope conveyed in Amitabha Buddha's Pureland Dharma Door is very unique and all-encompassing. But not many can understand it. For those who really do, not many are able to explain in ways which truly addresses the different needs of their audience, whereby the personality and intellectual capacity differs from person to person, sometimes greatly at some level.

Other than believing in the message of hope taught in the pureland school, I think practioners need something else to help them cross over successfully to the bridge of hope. They need something to help them believe that there is actually a bridge of hope to walk towards to, and then finally into the warm embrace of Amitabha Buddha and his retinue of Bodhisattvas.

I have not yet really understood and personally experience the truth behind what that 'something' is. Something that is suitable for people with average or maybe below average spiritual intelligence (in this present era and after, but before the birth of Maitreya Buddha) to learn, understand, accept and believe in wholeheartedly.

Until some practioner of the Amitabha Buddha Pureland School can adequately address the specific needs of such groups of people, the message of hope conveyed in pureland school will at best remain a message, a concept, an ideal or mere words of encouragement for them.

My personal opinion is, the above is a responsibility, a burden so complex and heavy that it would require the wisdom of Buddhas or Bodhisattavas who still has strong affinity with people of the present Dharma-Ending Age, to manifest as human beings among us, to lead Buddhist practitioners with average or low spiritual intelligence and will towards the best possible paths of deliverance for each of them.

I pray for this every now and then.

May this wish come true.

To me, Buddhadharma is a very closed door as people without faith cannot be affected by it.

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by sinweiy @ Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:36:20 +0800

sinweiy — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:36:20 +0800

Originally posted by Spnw07:
[b]Some may be able to do it, and some not, before their time comes.

If everybody can attain the ability to hold down negative thoughts, feelings and addictions as described and that ability remains either unchanged or grows stronger with time before each individual's final end, then there would be no reincarnation or six realms of karmic existence.

May I go so far as to say that there wouldn't even be any need for Amitabha Buddha to save all sentient beings, from all realms of existence, with his 48 vows if the ability to hold down negative thoughts and habits is achievable by all in their own lifetime. Cos this will almost ensure that they will never, ever fall into the 3 evil realms again, starting from that particular lifetime when they have achieved that ability to a unshakeable level.

My deepest concern goes out to those who can't or don't even realise the important need to help themselves out of the endless cycles of rebirth. Or even if they can or do realise, they are unable to maintain the ability to 'hold down' from the point of starting to change all the way till their last breath.

"What is the Pureland really? The Pureland is one's own stainless primordial awareness. If, from moment to moment, you regain and retain your own primordial enlightened nature: that is the Pureland. Everything comes from your own mind. Understand that, remain there: that is the Pureland."

to me, Amitabha PL is Nirvana itself. no Amitabha PL, den no Nirvana.

There are four kinds of Nirvana equivalent to the 4 Abodes of PL:
Nirvana of pure, clear self-nature = Pure Abode of Good people and good Saints living together.
Nirvana with residue = Pure Temporary Abode with residue of Not Knowing, more for Arahants.
Nirvana without residue = Pure Abode of Permanent Reward, more for Bodhisattvas.
Nirvana of no dwelling = Pure Abode of Eternal Light and Tranquillity, more for Buddhas.

actually, what i mean by 'hold down' is not quite the same as severing the 3 poisons. 'hold down' is just like placing a stone on a growing grass. it's Temporary, while severing is the pulling out of the root of the grass.

saving all sentient beings is still very much the whole path is all about. it's the Essence of the 4 Bodhisattva's universe vow ie the First vow. the last 3 is just to support the First.
and the path is not about "no rebirth", in the sense that it's about 'extinction'. what for, Buddha go and seek for 'extinction'?

/\

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by Spnw07 @ Sun, 13 Jan 2008 00:28:36 +0800

Spnw07 — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 00:28:36 +0800

Originally posted by sinweiy:

true, so how?
hold down can or not? hold down in the sense, when they arises, you are quick to recognise it and stop it.

if can, then there's hope in pureland school.

/\

Some may be able to do it, and some not, before their time comes.

If everybody can attain the ability to hold down negative thoughts, feelings and addictions as described and that ability remains either unchanged or grows stronger with time before each individual's final end, then there would be no reincarnation or six realms of karmic existence.

May I go so far as to say that there wouldn't even be any need for Amitabha Buddha to save all sentient beings, from all realms of existence, with his 48 vows if the ability to hold down negative thoughts and habits is achievable by all in their own lifetime. Cos this will almost ensure that they will never, ever fall into the 3 evil realms again, starting from that particular lifetime when they have achieved that ability to a unshakeable level.

My deepest concern goes out to those who can't or don't even realise the important need to help themselves out of the endless cycles of rebirth. Or even if they can or do realise, they are unable to maintain the ability to 'hold down' from the point of starting to change all the way till their last breath.

The message of hope conveyed in Amitabha Buddha's Pureland Dharma Door is very unique and all-encompassing. But not many can understand it. For those who really do, not many are able to explain in ways which truly addresses the different needs of their audience, whereby the personality and intellectual capacity differs from person to person, sometimes greatly at some level.

Other than believing in the message of hope taught in the pureland school, I think practioners need something else to help them cross over successfully to the bridge of hope. They need something to help them believe that there is actually a bridge of hope to walk towards to, and then finally into the warm embrace of Amitabha Buddha and his retinue of Bodhisattvas.

I have not yet really understood and personally experience the truth behind what that 'something' is. Something that is suitable for people with average or maybe below average spiritual intelligence (in this present era and after, but before the birth of Maitreya Buddha) to learn, understand, accept and believe in wholeheartedly.

Until some practioner of the Amitabha Buddha Pureland School can adequately address the specific needs of such groups of people, the message of hope conveyed in pureland school will at best remain a message, a concept, an ideal or mere words of encouragement for them.

My personal opinion is, the above is a responsibility, a burden so complex and heavy that it would require the wisdom of Buddhas or Bodhisattavas who still has strong affinity with people of the present Dharma-Ending Age, to manifest as human beings among us, to lead Buddhist practitioners with average or low spiritual intelligence and will towards the best possible paths of deliverance for each of them.

I pray for this every now and then.

May this wish come true.

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by sinweiy @ Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:23:42 +0800

sinweiy — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:23:42 +0800

Originally posted by Spnw07:
True, but not all of us have the ability to cut off the 3 poisons before one's destined end of lifespan on earth.

true, so how?
hold down can or not? hold down in the sense, when they arises, you are quick to recognise it and stop it.

if can, then there's hope in pureland school.

/\

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by Spnw07 @ Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:00:33 +0800

Spnw07 — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:00:33 +0800

Originally posted by sinweiy:

that's right, it's cause/yin + conditions/yuan = effect/guo.
if the seed is covered with cement, the seed also cannot grow.
we may have planted bad seeds, if we can cut off the 3 poisons now, then bad effect can be reduce.

/\

True, but not all of us have the ability to cut off the 3 poisons before one's destined end of lifespan on earth.

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by sinweiy @ Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:26:05 +0800

sinweiy — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:26:05 +0800

Originally posted by oldkid:
Very correct. Although the seed has been planted, the conditions need to be right in order for the seed to bear fruit.

that's right, it's cause/yin + conditions/yuan = effect/guo.
if the seed is covered with cement, the seed also cannot grow.
we may have planted bad seeds, if we can cut off the 3 poisons now, then bad effect can be reduce.

/\

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by oldkid @ Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:01:31 +0800

oldkid — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:01:31 +0800

Originally posted by knightlll:

It is yin , yuan , guo. Not just yin guo.

Very correct. Although the seed has been planted, the conditions need to be right in order for the seed to bear fruit. Just to note, karma itself does not recognise good or bad.

C & E: a religious concept or distorted thinking? replied by Herzog_Zwei @ Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:22:18 +0800

Herzog_Zwei — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:22:18 +0800

Originally posted by oldkid:

The most simple form of cause and effect I can think of is that if one is to plant a mango seed he will get a mango tree which will bear mango as fruits. The conditions has to be right such as sunlight, water and soil. It is impossible to get banana from mango tree. Although it may sound so matter-o-factly and simple, it is the truth. From this simple example, we can then contemplate on bigger ideas/truths, such as previous life and next life.

Well, for me cause and effect is not a religous concept. It is the real thing happening in real life. Some pple may consider Buddhism as a religon, some may consider it phliosphical. For me I consider it as a proper way of life.

As one goes practise more and more, one will not only wants to help Buddhist, one will also wanna help everyone, none Buddhist inclusive.

It is also possible despite all the positive conditions that the mango seed won't germinate. So there are myriad possiblities and thus cause and effect may not be always true.

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