dharmanature replied by An Eternal Now @ Sun, 11 May 2008 17:06:57 +0800

An Eternal Now — Sun, 11 May 2008 17:06:57 +0800

Q.
Unintelligible question from the audience.

A.
“We have to talk a little about emptiness. The teachings of emptiness in no way claim that what we perceive does not exist absolutely. We are not saying that things made of atoms and molecules and have material reality literally do not exist, and in that sense, illusory. We are saying that they have no self-nature. They have no inherent existence. They have no solid, substantial, reality that corresponds to their mode of appearance. They seem to be inherently existent, yet they are not. This is the teaching of the great Middle Way School, Madhyamika. There a couple of different schools of thought here, the Mind-Only School (Cittimatra) says that everything is mind. The only thing that truly exists is the mind itself and everything else is a projection of the mind. Mahamudra teachings say that the actual nature of reality is such that it transcends postulation of either existence or non-existence, or both, or neither. This is called the ‘Four Extremes’. The Mahamudra view transcends them. From our relative level of truth in Tibetan they say ‘Kun-Zop Dempa’ which is a fascinating phrase . ‘Dempa’ means truth. ‘Kun-Zop’ means completely false. Therefore the ‘completely false truth’, the relative truth is a result of our mistaken perception. We perceive things to have inherent existence when they really do not. Our minds grasp at what we perceive as solid and real. Because of that mental grasping, we reify that which is in fact empty. That is a mistake. That is an error. All appearances are our experience. They are experienced by and in our own minds. Other than that, there is no possibility of experience. All external appearance is a mental projection in the sense that it is experienced by the mind. It has no solid inherent existence from its own side. That is a mistake in perception.”

dharmanature replied by An Eternal Now @ Sun, 11 May 2008 17:05:47 +0800

An Eternal Now — Sun, 11 May 2008 17:05:47 +0800

http://www.purifymind.com/QandA.htm

Q.
“If interdependent origination arises in emptiness. Then, how can this be if there is no elaboration in emptiness?”

A.
“Emptiness and interdependent origination are non-dual. They are one. Even to say non-dual is to miss the mark, because that implies that there might have been a duality that was overcome. From the beginningless beginning, they have always been one. There is no difference between them. It is not like there are two divisions. When you see emptiness and interdependent origination dualistically, it is the extrapolation of samsara, cyclic existence. Overcome duality and you see cause and effect at the same time. Then everything arises together. That is complete, non-dual emptiness and interdependent origination. In the text, many examples are used to illustrate this truth of the non-dual union of emptiness and interdependent origination. Nevertheless, let us take, for example, this cup. As a relative manifestation or appearance that be experienced by our perceptual mechanisms, the cup is something that is composite. It is made of smaller particles. Is it not? It is made of atoms and molecules that become particular substances: earth, air, fire, and water. All of those things are combined in such a way as to produce what we call a cup. Then it is decorated, painted, and carved. That is something that is made in Tibetan we say ‘Dütshe’: composite, something that has been created. Causes and conditions have been brought together in such a way to create a relatively existent manifestation that we can use and interact with and perceive as what we call a cup. However, from its own side, independent of causes and conditions, there is no ‘cupness’. There is nothing arising as the ‘cup’ in and of itself apart from that entire process of causes and conditions coming together. It has no essence. Its essence is empty. In the ‘Prajña Paramita Hydraya’ Sutra, the ‘Heart Sutra’, it says “Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form. Other than emptiness there is no form, other than form there is no emptiness.” All phenomena have that exact same nature. Whatever is experienced within either cyclic existence, or its transcendence, has that exact same nature. Its essence is empty and it is experienced as a result of interdependent origination. To perceive things as alternate visions of emptiness and interdependent origination is to remain an ordinary sentient being. To overcome the dualistic vision, to perceive things simultaneously as emptiness and interdependent origination, is to be Buddha. The great Arya Nagarjuna said: “Cyclic existence and its transcendence (samsara and nirvana) are not two. Understanding the nature of cyclic existence in itself is transcendence.”

dharmanature replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 07 May 2008 22:41:29 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 07 May 2008 22:41:29 +0800

Could anyone explain what does "(Buddha) 25. Consciousness non-manifesting, Boundless, luminous all-round:513 that is not partaken of by the earthness of earth, that is not partaken of by the waterness of water...[330]... that is not partaken of by the allness of all.'"

actually mean?

And also how does it actually relate with what Dogen wrote (which I just found): "Therefore, the very impermanency of grass and tree, thicket and forest, is the Buddha nature. The very impermanency of men and things, body and mind, is the Buddha nature. Nature and lands, mountains and rivers, are impermanent because they are Buddha nature. Supreme and complete enlightenment, because it is the Buddha nature, is impermanent. Great Nirvana, because it is impermanent, is the Buddha nature."

dharmanature replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 07 May 2008 22:33:59 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 07 May 2008 22:33:59 +0800

From the same sutta:

(Buddha) "'Brahma, having directly known earth as earth, and having directly known that which is not partaken of the earthness of earth, I did not claim to be earth, I did not claim to be in earth, I did not claim to be apart from earth, I did not claim earth to be "mine," I did not affirm earth. Thus, Brahma, in regard to direct knowledge I do not stand merely at the same level as you, how then could I know less? Rather, I know more than you.

12-23."'Brahma, having directly known water as water...fire as fire...air as air... beings as beings...gods as gods...Pajapati as Pajapati...Brahma as Brahma...the gods of Streaming Radiance as the gods of Streaming Radiance...the gods of Refulgent Glory as the gods of Refulgent Glory... the gods of Great Fruit as the gods of Great Fruit...the Overlord as the Overlord...all as all, and having directly known that which is not partaken of the all-ness of all, I did not claim to be all, I did not claim to be in all, I did not claim to be apart from all, I did not claim all to be "mine," I did not affirm all. Thus, Brahma, in regard to direct knowledge, I do not stand merely at the same level as you, how then could I know less? Rather, I know more than you.'

(Brahma) 24. "'Good sir, if that is not partaken of by the allness of all, may it not turn out to be vacuous and empty for you!'512

(Buddha) 25. Consciousness non-manifesting, Boundless, luminous all-round:513 that is not partaken of by the earthness of earth, that is not partaken of by the waterness of water...[330]... that is not partaken of by the allness of all.'

dharmanature replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 07 May 2008 22:11:59 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 07 May 2008 22:11:59 +0800

Originally posted by Thusness:

All sensations, experiences though vividly clear is nothing ultimate -- empty of inherent essence. Nothing to cling to.

The Buddha taught this:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.049.than.html

'Having seen 

        danger

    right in becoming,

        and becoming

      searching for non-becoming,10

I didn't affirm

any kind of becoming,

or cling to any delight.'

10. In other words, the act of searching for non-becoming — or annihilation — is also a type of becoming. Although the Buddhist path aims at the cessation of becoming (bhava), it does not attempt this cessation by trying to annihilate the process of becoming. Instead, it does so by focusing on what has already come to be (bhuta), developing dispassion for what has come to be and for the nutriment — the causes — of what has come to be. With no more passion, there is no clinging to or taking sustenance from the causes of what has come to be. And through this lack of clinging or sustenance comes release. On this point see SN 12.31 and Iti 49.

dharmanature replied by longchen @ Mon, 05 May 2008 20:07:02 +0800

longchen — Mon, 05 May 2008 20:07:02 +0800

Originally posted by Thusness:

Missed these 2 posts. Very Good Stuff! I pieced them together as they should be treated as one.

Fearlessness and willingness to drop once sank sufficiently deep into our inmost consciousness will result in the wave like sensation as described below.

The wave is like spiritual tai-chi. A strength, a momentum of its own to auto-release whatever clingings. Once a practitioner experiences this 'wave like auto release', confident arises in the practitioner that there is the ability to substain non-dual clarity. Best go along with this phrase :

All sensations, experiences though vividly clear is nothing ultimate -- empty of inherent essence. Nothing to cling to.

Dedicate enough time to meditate and sit with the willingness to completely drop even the 'conscious portion' to 'build' up this 'wave'. It is the strength that prevents one from falling back and it is due to the arising of this 'wave' that a practitioner is now 'willing' to drop that 'conscious portion' -- Psychological death overcome in due time. This is most important. :) However, a practitioner should not be over-confident at this junture...'attachment' will 'wear' out this 'wave'. Good Luck!

All sensations, experiences though vividly clear is nothing ultimate -- empty of inherent essence. Nothing to cling to.

Good stuff! Thanks for sharing!

Hi Thusness,

Thanks for the sharing and tips.

dharmanature replied by An Eternal Now @ Mon, 05 May 2008 10:57:24 +0800

An Eternal Now — Mon, 05 May 2008 10:57:24 +0800

54. The unstoppable stream of the ego’s conscious thoughts cannot stay still long enough to comprehend the truth. Yet people are always trying to think up a barrier to the flow, to use thoughts to stop thinking. Thoughts are like wildcats. We would never use one wildcat to tame another.

How then do we enter the state of non-thought? We understand the non-substantial nature of both the one who thinks and the thought itself. We understand that in reality there is not even a single tiny thought of a thought, or a thinker either. When we bear witness to this reality, our own testimony liberates us from bondage of thoughts of having no thoughts.

57. The clearer the body, the brighter one’s Buddha Nature shines. In the beginning, we still need the body. It’s like a lamp. The Buddha Nature is this flame. But we may still be conscious of shadows. As we progress we feel that the body is the universe itself and that our Buddha Self shines throughout it like the sun.

~ Master Han Shan - http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/HanShan/hanshan-maxims.html

dharmanature replied by Thusness @ Mon, 05 May 2008 09:17:39 +0800

Thusness — Mon, 05 May 2008 09:17:39 +0800

Missed these 2 posts. Very Good Stuff! I pieced them together as they should be treated as one.

Originally posted by longchen:

Just a sharing...

Fearlessness plays a large part.

A person can stay in non-dual is partly due to the willingness to drop away defenses. The 'sense of self' strive to protect and preserve itself.

Presence can 'intuit' that nothing gets harmed even amidst apparent pain and destruction. This is not the same as a separate object that is not harmed despite apparent destruction. The latter description is I AM level understanding. Non-dual is different in that there is no concept of a separate 'true self/I AM' that is unharmed.

Fearlessness and willingness to drop once sank sufficiently deep into our inmost consciousness will result in the wave like sensation as described below.

I am beginning to experience the benefit of sustained non-duality and no-self. The mind automatically comes to a rest... be it walking, standing, sitting or any position. The rest and joy of no-self is not something that the un-enlightened can experience. Also, increasingly the egoic mind is losing its power to condition. When there is no subject-object split, the sense of suffering is greatly reduced... The egoic mind still can trick one into engaging into a 'fight with reality', but it is losing its power to sustain. When the egoic mind arouse a bodily tension and if it is not engaged for too long, the tension will self-release. This is what I meant as the experience of rising and falling waves. The body tension is also what give a person a kind of identification as the body. With the tension gone, there can be at times no sense of body. The process is certainly not complete... but I have entered a new phase... that is characterised by the egoic mind losing its charge. The strength of Presence and 'fearlessness in deconstruction' plays a crucial role

The wave is like spiritual tai-chi. A strength, a momentum of its own to auto-release whatever clingings. Once a practitioner experiences this 'wave like auto release', confident arises in the practitioner that there is the ability to substain non-dual clarity. Best go along with this phrase :

All sensations, experiences though vividly clear is nothing ultimate -- empty of inherent essence. Nothing to cling to.

This is not a very accurate description as it is conceptual here. But the experience roughly translated to this. Dropping can still have a kind of knowingness or it can fully drop the conscious awareness too. The more dropping the more shiok :)

Dedicate enough time to meditate and sit with the willingness to completely drop even the 'conscious portion' to 'build' up this 'wave'. It is the strength that prevents one from falling back and it is due to the arising of this 'wave' that a practitioner is now 'willing' to drop that 'conscious portion' -- Psychological death overcome in due time. This is most important. :) However, a practitioner should not be over-confident at this junture...'attachment' will 'wear' out this 'wave'. Good Luck!

Also, sensation are just that. All part of the experience of being a specific species... in our case .. being human. The sensations are specific to human being.

By human, we tend to think in terms of physical form or entity. However, human is really an experience and there is no-self there. Just the experience conditioned by the karmic conditionings perculiar to the specie. For example, the feeling of feet against floor when walking, sound of chewing when eating, taste of salt are specific to the individual within the specie.

All sensations, experiences though vividly clear is nothing ultimate -- empty of inherent essence. Nothing to cling to.

Good stuff! Thanks for sharing!

dharmanature replied by longchen @ Sun, 04 May 2008 23:05:20 +0800

longchen — Sun, 04 May 2008 23:05:20 +0800

Originally posted by Thusness:

Indeed! When there is preference towards 'knowingness', 'not conscious' becomes mysterious and alien. What that prevents and resist is merely an attachment to that 'knowingness' portion that loves to stay in the 'known' creating artificial boundaries. In actual case nothing is separated. The 'unknowingly' is the 'tendencies'. Don't underestimate it, t is subtle.

Happy Journey!

I see... Thanks :)

dharmanature replied by Thusness @ Sun, 04 May 2008 20:26:56 +0800

Thusness — Sun, 04 May 2008 20:26:56 +0800

Originally posted by longchen:

I see. I have 'unknowingly' made another conceptual separation.

Indeed! When there is preference towards 'knowingness', 'not conscious' becomes mysterious and alien. What that prevents and resist is merely an attachment to that 'knowingness' portion that loves to stay in the 'known' creating artificial boundaries. In actual case nothing is separated. The 'unknowingly' is the 'tendencies'. Don't underestimate it, t is subtle.

Happy Journey!

dharmanature replied by longchen @ Sun, 04 May 2008 18:30:54 +0800

longchen — Sun, 04 May 2008 18:30:54 +0800

Originally posted by Thusness:

Hi Longchen,

I can sense ur 'joy' derived from the dropping away of self; The entire idea of 'self' is learnt, nothing inherent. The 'joy' of 'dropping away' allows the willingness to let go even the 'knowingness' portion; hence deepening the insight of no-self. :)

Conscious or not conscious are mere notions. The point is not to let 'conscious knowingness' becomes a stumbling block as it has in the past by wrongly associating and limiting 'Presence' with 'knowingness'. Substaining 'conscious knowing' does not bring us closer to Presence and 'not-conscious' does not deny or distant one from our essence. Once the 'dropping away' is thorough, the line that 'separates' will also dissapear into an experience of wholeness where everything acts and inter-acts.

Just a sharing. :)

I see. I have 'unknowingly' made another conceptual separation.

Thanks Thusness :)

dharmanature replied by Thusness @ Sun, 04 May 2008 17:51:15 +0800

Thusness — Sun, 04 May 2008 17:51:15 +0800

Originally posted by longchen:

Just a sharing...

"Here, awareness is naturally and spontaneously aware but not self-conscious....The scenery sees, the sound hears"... etc is non-dual, but a knowingness can still nevertheless persist. "Self-conscious' can mean different things. No-self can have a knowingness... it is just that this knowingness is not attributed to 'a self that knows' anymore. This knowingness allows the body to avoid being knocked down by a car, when to stop walking, etc.

'Not conscious' means knowingness also drop away. This is basically an even more thorough 'let go' that the previously described experience.

Have to understand that non-duality is not just one experience. It has many depths of thoroughness. And I am sure there are depths and experiences are that totally unknown to me at this time too.

Am getting an intuition that I am missing something here and something needs correction. Not too sure what is it yet...

regards

Hi Longchen,

I can sense ur 'joy' derived from the dropping away of self; The entire idea of 'self' is learnt, nothing inherent. The 'joy' of 'dropping away' allows the willingness to let go even the 'knowingness' portion; hence deepening the insight of no-self. :)

Conscious or not conscious are mere notions. The point is not to let 'conscious knowingness' becomes a stumbling block as it has in the past by wrongly associating and limiting 'Presence' with 'knowingness'. Substaining 'conscious knowing' does not bring us closer to Presence and 'not-conscious' does not deny or distant one from our essence. Once the 'dropping away' is thorough, the line that 'separates' will also dissapear into an experience of wholeness where everything acts and inter-acts.

Just a sharing. :)

dharmanature replied by longchen @ Sun, 04 May 2008 00:47:01 +0800

longchen — Sun, 04 May 2008 00:47:01 +0800

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

A note about "This can be a long, developmental process from the first time they notice this to it becoming a nearly complete experience. Thus, Third Path tends to be a long path, though it doesn’t have to be." -- Dharma Dan took about 1 year to progress from Stream Enterer to Once Returner to Anagami, but got stuck 7 years in the Anagami stage.

------

http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/51EE7943-0A69-488A-B5B0-3C8F2EF7C5E8.html

...Those of Third Path have shifted their understanding of what progress is from those of Second Path, and have been to see that it is about seeing the emptiness, selflessness, impermanence, etc. of sensations in daily life and begin to see that they have the ability to do this. This can be a long, developmental process from the first time they notice this to it becoming a nearly complete experience. Thus, Third Path tends to be a long path, though it doesn’t have to be.

At the beginning of Third Path, most practitioners think: “I’ll just complete more cycles of insight, like I did before, and this will do the trick.” They don’t tend to understand what it is they have attained all that well yet, nor its deeper implications. By the mature stage of Third Path, which can take months to years to show up, the practitioner is more and more able to see the emptiness, selfless, centerlessness, luminosity, etc. of phenomena in real-time, so much so that it can be very difficult to notice what artificial dualities remain.

As they cycle, they will enter new territory, possibly causing some uncertainty or instability, and with each Review phase they tend to really feel that they have done it until they begin to notice the limits of their practice. There can be this nagging something in the background that things aren’t done, and yet figuring out exactly what the problem is can be very slippery. It is a bit like being in the stages before stream entry, trying to figure out what exactly needs to be done. They need to notice something that has nothing to do with the cycles, to finally untangle the knot of perception at its core, but doing this can be a real trick. It is a very strange place, as one seems to know the dharma all the way to the end and yet somehow it just isn’t quite enough. In that vein, it is interesting to note that I wrote the vast majority of this book while I was some sort of anagami, and on reflection I got just about everything right. My emphases are slightly different now, but the basics are all the same.

As things progress, anagamis begin to tire of the cycles to a small or large degree and begin to look to something outside of them or not related to them for the answer to the final question. Finally, the cycles of insight, the states of concentration, the powers, and all the other perks and prerogatives of their stage of awakening or concentration abilities (if they developed them) hold no appeal and only lead to more unsatisfying cycles.

I completed around 27 full, complete insight cycles with mind-blowing A&P Events, Ass-kicking Dark Nights, Equanimity phases, and what seemed to be brand new, fresh Fruitions and Review phases between third and fourth path. There is nothing special about that number, as I mentioned previously in my descriptions of the problem that I call Twelfth Path. The later cycles got faster and faster, so that by the end it seemed I was whipping one out every few weeks or even every few days, but they still seemed to be leading nowhere. It was only when I had gotten so sick of the cycles and realized that they were leading nowhere that I was able to see what has nothing to do with the cycles, which also wasn’t anything except a strange untangling of the knot of perception of them. The cycles, for better or worse, have continued just the same. Thus, there is not much point in counting cycles or paths, as they don’t necessarily correlate well with anything past the first two or three, and issues of backsliding can really make things complex, as I explained earlier.

Finishing up my Revised Four Path Model, arahats have finally untangled the knot of perception, dissolved the sense of the center point actually being the center point, no longer fundamentally make a separate Self out of the patterns of sensations that they used to, even though those same patterns of sensations continue. This is a different understanding from those of Third Path in some subtle way, and makes this path about something that is beyond the paths. This is also poetically called the opening of the Wisdom Eye. What is interesting is that I could write about this stage quite well when I was an anagami, but that is a whole different world from knowing it like arahats know it.

The Wisdom Eye may seem to blink initially. It may go through cycles of flashing open just after a Fruition and then slowly fading over a few hours (at least on retreat) as each round of physical sensations, then mental sensations, then complex emotional formations, then lastly fundamental formations such as inquiry itself move through and become integrated into this new, correct and direct perception of reality as it is. Review cycles may occur many times during each flash, but when the eye is open they seem rather irrelevant in comparison to keeping the level of clarity and acceptance high enough to keep the eye open. When the eye fades, the familiar insight cycles may seem like pure drudgery, with the focus being of practice initially lost in getting through the cycles and then gradually shifting again to getting clear enough to get the eye to open again. The themes that occupy center stage go through a cycle that is very much like a progress cycle.

Finally, the Wisdom Eye cycles and insight cycles all converge, and the thing stays open from then on, which is to say that at that point it all seems the same whether or not the eye is open, which it actually was. That being seen, nothing can erode or disturb the centerlessness of perspective. Done is what is to be done, and life goes on. That there are arahats who have opened the Wisdom Eye but had it fade and those who have opened it and had it stay open is rarely mentioned but worth knowing.

For the arahat who has kept the thing open, there is nothing more to be gained on the ultimate front from insight practices, as “done is what is to be done”. That said, insight practices can still be of great benefit to them for a whole host of reasons, there is a ton they can learn just like everyone else about everything else there is to learn. They can grow, develop, change, work and participate in this strange human drama just like everyone else.

Thanks for this.. :)

dharmanature replied by longchen @ Sun, 04 May 2008 00:38:34 +0800

longchen — Sun, 04 May 2008 00:38:34 +0800

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Just now some thoughts arose and an emotion arose due to the arising of the egoic mind... immediately that was recognised (so mindfulness is very important) and released, and I could actually feel the tension in my chest area being released. Taking persons, situations and events in an impersonal manner feels really liberating! :D (btw does anyone have trouble viewing the list of emoticons on sgforums?)

Sounds good.

:) Shiok hor...

dharmanature replied by An Eternal Now @ Sun, 04 May 2008 00:30:13 +0800

An Eternal Now — Sun, 04 May 2008 00:30:13 +0800

Originally posted by longchen:

Also, increasingly the egoic mind is losing its power to condition. When there is no subject-object split, the sense of suffering is greatly reduced... The egoic mind still can trick one into engaging into a 'fight with reality', but it is losing its power to sustain. When the egoic mind arouse a bodily tension and if it is not engaged for too long, the tension will self-release. This is what I meant as the experience of rising and falling waves. The body tension is also what give a person a kind of identification as the body. With the tension gone, there can be at times no sense of body.

Just now some thoughts arose and an emotion arose due to the arising of the egoic mind... immediately that was recognised (so mindfulness is very important) and released, and I could actually feel the tension in my chest area being released. Taking persons, situations and events in an impersonal manner feels really liberating! :D (btw does anyone have trouble viewing the list of emoticons on sgforums?)

dharmanature replied by An Eternal Now @ Sat, 03 May 2008 18:34:07 +0800

An Eternal Now — Sat, 03 May 2008 18:34:07 +0800

Originally posted by longchen:

Just a sharing...

"Here, awareness is naturally and spontaneously aware but not self-conscious....The scenery sees, the sound hears"... etc is non-dual, but a knowingness can still nevertheless persist. "Self-conscious' can mean different things. No-self can have a knowingness... it is just that this knowingness is not attributed to 'a self that knows' anymore. This knowingness allows the body to avoid being knocked down by a car, when to stop walking, etc.

'Not conscious' means knowingness also drop away. This is basically an even more thorough 'let go' that the previously described experience.

Have to understand that non-duality is not just one experience. It has many depths of thoroughness. And I am sure there are depths and experiences are that totally unknown to me at this time too.

Am getting an intuition that I am missing something here and something needs correction. Not too sure what is it yet...

regards

A note about "This can be a long, developmental process from the first time they notice this to it becoming a nearly complete experience. Thus, Third Path tends to be a long path, though it doesn’t have to be." -- Dharma Dan took about 1 year to progress from Stream Enterer to Once Returner to Anagami, but got stuck 7 years in the Anagami stage.

------

http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/51EE7943-0A69-488A-B5B0-3C8F2EF7C5E8.html

...Those of Third Path have shifted their understanding of what progress is from those of Second Path, and have been to see that it is about seeing the emptiness, selflessness, impermanence, etc. of sensations in daily life and begin to see that they have the ability to do this. This can be a long, developmental process from the first time they notice this to it becoming a nearly complete experience. Thus, Third Path tends to be a long path, though it doesn’t have to be.

At the beginning of Third Path, most practitioners think: “I’ll just complete more cycles of insight, like I did before, and this will do the trick.” They don’t tend to understand what it is they have attained all that well yet, nor its deeper implications. By the mature stage of Third Path, which can take months to years to show up, the practitioner is more and more able to see the emptiness, selfless, centerlessness, luminosity, etc. of phenomena in real-time, so much so that it can be very difficult to notice what artificial dualities remain.

As they cycle, they will enter new territory, possibly causing some uncertainty or instability, and with each Review phase they tend to really feel that they have done it until they begin to notice the limits of their practice. There can be this nagging something in the background that things aren’t done, and yet figuring out exactly what the problem is can be very slippery. It is a bit like being in the stages before stream entry, trying to figure out what exactly needs to be done. They need to notice something that has nothing to do with the cycles, to finally untangle the knot of perception at its core, but doing this can be a real trick. It is a very strange place, as one seems to know the dharma all the way to the end and yet somehow it just isn’t quite enough. In that vein, it is interesting to note that I wrote the vast majority of this book while I was some sort of anagami, and on reflection I got just about everything right. My emphases are slightly different now, but the basics are all the same.

As things progress, anagamis begin to tire of the cycles to a small or large degree and begin to look to something outside of them or not related to them for the answer to the final question. Finally, the cycles of insight, the states of concentration, the powers, and all the other perks and prerogatives of their stage of awakening or concentration abilities (if they developed them) hold no appeal and only lead to more unsatisfying cycles.

I completed around 27 full, complete insight cycles with mind-blowing A&P Events, Ass-kicking Dark Nights, Equanimity phases, and what seemed to be brand new, fresh Fruitions and Review phases between third and fourth path. There is nothing special about that number, as I mentioned previously in my descriptions of the problem that I call Twelfth Path. The later cycles got faster and faster, so that by the end it seemed I was whipping one out every few weeks or even every few days, but they still seemed to be leading nowhere. It was only when I had gotten so sick of the cycles and realized that they were leading nowhere that I was able to see what has nothing to do with the cycles, which also wasn’t anything except a strange untangling of the knot of perception of them. The cycles, for better or worse, have continued just the same. Thus, there is not much point in counting cycles or paths, as they don’t necessarily correlate well with anything past the first two or three, and issues of backsliding can really make things complex, as I explained earlier.

Finishing up my Revised Four Path Model, arahats have finally untangled the knot of perception, dissolved the sense of the center point actually being the center point, no longer fundamentally make a separate Self out of the patterns of sensations that they used to, even though those same patterns of sensations continue. This is a different understanding from those of Third Path in some subtle way, and makes this path about something that is beyond the paths. This is also poetically called the opening of the Wisdom Eye. What is interesting is that I could write about this stage quite well when I was an anagami, but that is a whole different world from knowing it like arahats know it.

The Wisdom Eye may seem to blink initially. It may go through cycles of flashing open just after a Fruition and then slowly fading over a few hours (at least on retreat) as each round of physical sensations, then mental sensations, then complex emotional formations, then lastly fundamental formations such as inquiry itself move through and become integrated into this new, correct and direct perception of reality as it is. Review cycles may occur many times during each flash, but when the eye is open they seem rather irrelevant in comparison to keeping the level of clarity and acceptance high enough to keep the eye open. When the eye fades, the familiar insight cycles may seem like pure drudgery, with the focus being of practice initially lost in getting through the cycles and then gradually shifting again to getting clear enough to get the eye to open again. The themes that occupy center stage go through a cycle that is very much like a progress cycle.

Finally, the Wisdom Eye cycles and insight cycles all converge, and the thing stays open from then on, which is to say that at that point it all seems the same whether or not the eye is open, which it actually was. That being seen, nothing can erode or disturb the centerlessness of perspective. Done is what is to be done, and life goes on. That there are arahats who have opened the Wisdom Eye but had it fade and those who have opened it and had it stay open is rarely mentioned but worth knowing.

For the arahat who has kept the thing open, there is nothing more to be gained on the ultimate front from insight practices, as “done is what is to be done”. That said, insight practices can still be of great benefit to them for a whole host of reasons, there is a ton they can learn just like everyone else about everything else there is to learn. They can grow, develop, change, work and participate in this strange human drama just like everyone else.

dharmanature replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:23:33 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:23:33 +0800

Originally posted by longchen:

At the current experience, the knowingness can drop away when I am sitting or standing... stationary positions. The rest of mind during these times are just great.

No... cannot function normally when required to do things.

For my case, the constant using of memory to verify experiences proved to be a major hurdle. This need to verify (via comparision with informations gathered from books or others) is really a kind of grasping related to doubt. The need for verification must be drop away.

Those that gather alot of teachings and assimilate them conceptually will have a hard time. That was my experience. He he..

I see..

dharmanature replied by longchen @ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:11:49 +0800

longchen — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:11:49 +0800

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

I see.. you said "This knowingness allows the body to avoid being knocked down by a car, when to stop walking, etc."

So when this knowingness falls away can you function normally?

At the current experience, the knowingness can drop away when I am sitting or standing... stationary positions. The rest of mind during these times are just great.

No... cannot function normally when required to do things.

For my case, the constant using of memory to verify experiences proved to be a major hurdle. This need to verify (via comparision with informations gathered from books or others) is really a kind of grasping related to doubt. The need for verification must be drop away.

Those that gather alot of teachings and assimilate them conceptually will have a hard time. That was my experience. He he..

dharmanature replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:57:00 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:57:00 +0800

Originally posted by longchen:

Just a sharing...

"Here, awareness is naturally and spontaneously aware but not self-conscious....The scenery sees, the sound hears"... etc is non-dual, but a knowingness can still nevertheless persist. "Self-conscious' can mean different things. No-self can have a knowingness... it is just that this knowingness is not attributed to 'a self that knows' anymore. This knowingness allows the body to avoid being knocked down by a car, when to stop walking, etc.

'Not conscious' means knowingness also drop away. This is basically an even more thorough 'let go' that the previously described experience.

Have to understand that non-duality is not just one experience. It has many depths of thoroughness. And I am sure there are depths and experiences are that totally unknown to me at this time too.

Am getting an intuition that I am missing something here and something needs correction. Not too sure what is it yet...

regards

I see.. you said "This knowingness allows the body to avoid being knocked down by a car, when to stop walking, etc."

So when this knowingness falls away can you function normally?

dharmanature replied by longchen @ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:17:33 +0800

longchen — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:17:33 +0800

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Thanks for the sharing... What do you mean by dropping the conscious awareness? My understanding is that its a sense of an inner watcher and constriction to the head looking outwards. When there is a release of conscious awareness from body/mind, awareness becomes expansive like space without subject/object duality. Here, awareness is naturally and spontaneously aware but not self-conscious. It seems like the universe Is without a center of experience or "self"... the scenery sees, but no seer, the sound hears, but no hearer.

Just a sharing...

"Here, awareness is naturally and spontaneously aware but not self-conscious....The scenery sees, the sound hears"... etc is non-dual, but a knowingness can still nevertheless persist. "Self-conscious' can mean different things. No-self can have a knowingness... it is just that this knowingness is not attributed to 'a self that knows' anymore. This knowingness allows the body to avoid being knocked down by a car, when to stop walking, etc.

'Not conscious' means knowingness also drop away. This is basically an even more thorough 'let go' that the previously described experience.

Have to understand that non-duality is not just one experience. It has many depths of thoroughness. And I am sure there are depths and experiences are that totally unknown to me at this time too.

Am getting an intuition that I am missing something here and something needs correction. Not too sure what is it yet...

regards

dharmanature replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 30 Apr 2008 06:40:52 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 06:40:52 +0800

Originally posted by longchen:

Just a sharing...

Fearlessness plays a large part.

A person can stay in non-dual is partly due to the willingness to drop away defenses. The 'sense of self' strive to protect and preserve itself.

Presence can 'intuit' that nothing gets harmed even amidst apparent pain and destruction. This is not the same as a separate object that is not harmed despite apparent destruction. The latter description is I AM level understanding. Non-dual is different in that there is no concept of a separate 'true self/I AM' that is unharmed.

This is not a very accurate description as it is conceptual here. But the experience roughly translated to this. Dropping can still have a kind of knowingness or it can fully drop the conscious awareness too. The more dropping the more shiok :)

Also, sensation are just that. All part of the experience of being a specific species... in our case .. being human. The sensations are specific to human being.

By human, we tend to think in terms of physical form or entity. However, human is really an experience and there is no-self there. Just the experience conditioned by the karmic conditionings perculiar to the specie. For example, the feeling of feet against floor when walking, sound of chewing when eating, taste of salt are specific to the individual within the specie.

That was a topic on the subject of laughing and what is its nature. Laughing is a conditioned response specific to humans only. It is just conditioned responses and pattern. Animals have never such experience. Again there is no self there, just an outcome successfully imprinted from many generations

Likewise, an animal will sensate experience perculiar to its species... but there is no-self there. All parts of impressions and sensations perculiar to the 'individual' within the species.

Thanks for the sharing... What do you mean by dropping the conscious awareness? My understanding is that its a sense of an inner watcher and constriction to the head looking outwards. When there is a release of conscious awareness from body/mind, awareness becomes expansive like space without subject/object duality. Here, awareness is naturally and spontaneously aware but not self-conscious. It seems like the universe Is without a center of experience or "self"... the scenery sees, but no seer, the sound hears, but no hearer.

dharmanature replied by longchen @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:39:31 +0800

longchen — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:39:31 +0800

dharmanature replied by longchen @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:22:15 +0800

longchen — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:22:15 +0800

dharmanature replied by longchen @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:15:06 +0800

longchen — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:15:06 +0800

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

http://nyima108.blogspot.com/2006/08/words-of-advice-by-loppn-namdrol.html

Monday, August 14, 2006

Words of Advice by Loppön Namdrol

You need to just sit and relax.

Take a proper posture. Expell the stale air.

Do Guru yoga.

Then relax. As one's mind slowly subsides, a vivid, clear and energetic radiance will emerge. This is not rigpa itself, but is instead the radiance aspect of awareness. Relaxing in this is the essence of tregchod.

If it does not arise-- it doesn't matter-- it is there anyway. If it arises, it doesn't matter, since there is nothing one can do to cause it to arise, nor will it ever subside. But it is revealed when one is sufficiently relaxed.

If thoughts occur, it doesn't matter, since thoughts do not exist outside of this state. If there are no thoughts, it doesn't matter, since this radiance is not product of stillness, no more than the lustre of clear water is a product of the settling out of detritus.

When one can "see" the radiance of awareness even in the midst of the chaos of concepts, then one's tregchod is moving ahead.

Otherwise, just relax and integrate into your primordial state.

A few words of advice on tregchod written by a so called "dzogchen pa" named Namdrol.

Source: E-Sangha

Posted by Nyima at 2:43 PM

Labels: Quotes

Just a sharing...

Fearlessness plays a large part.

A person can stay in non-dual is partly due to the willingness to drop away defenses. The 'sense of self' strive to protect and preserve itself.

Presence can 'intuit' that nothing gets harmed even amidst apparent pain and destruction. This is not the same as a separate object that is not harmed despite apparent destruction. The latter description is I AM level understanding. Non-dual is different in that there is no concept of a separate 'true self/I AM' that is unharmed.

This is not a very accurate description as it is conceptual here. But the experience roughly translated to this. Dropping can still have a kind of knowingness or it can fully drop the conscious awareness too. The more dropping the more shiok :)

Also, sensation are just that. All part of the experience of being a specific species... in our case .. being human. The sensations are specific to human being.

By human, we tend to think in terms of physical form or entity. However, human is really an experience and there is no-self there. Just the experience conditioned by the karmic conditionings perculiar to the specie. For example, the feeling of feet against floor when walking, sound of chewing when eating, taste of salt are specific to the individual within the specie.

That was a topic on the subject of laughing and what is its nature. Laughing is a conditioned response specific to humans only. It is just conditioned responses and pattern. Animals have never such experience. Again there is no self there, just an outcome successfully imprinted from many generations

Likewise, an animal will sensate experience perculiar to its species... but there is no-self there. All parts of impressions and sensations perculiar to the 'individual' within the species.

dharmanature replied by An Eternal Now @ Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:45:26 +0800

An Eternal Now — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:45:26 +0800

http://nyima108.blogspot.com/2006/08/words-of-advice-by-loppn-namdrol.html

Monday, August 14, 2006

Words of Advice by Loppön Namdrol

You need to just sit and relax.

Take a proper posture. Expell the stale air.

Do Guru yoga.

Then relax. As one's mind slowly subsides, a vivid, clear and energetic radiance will emerge. This is not rigpa itself, but is instead the radiance aspect of awareness. Relaxing in this is the essence of tregchod.

If it does not arise-- it doesn't matter-- it is there anyway. If it arises, it doesn't matter, since there is nothing one can do to cause it to arise, nor will it ever subside. But it is revealed when one is sufficiently relaxed.

If thoughts occur, it doesn't matter, since thoughts do not exist outside of this state. If there are no thoughts, it doesn't matter, since this radiance is not product of stillness, no more than the lustre of clear water is a product of the settling out of detritus.

When one can "see" the radiance of awareness even in the midst of the chaos of concepts, then one's tregchod is moving ahead.

Otherwise, just relax and integrate into your primordial state.

A few words of advice on tregchod written by a so called "dzogchen pa" named Namdrol.

Source: E-Sangha

Posted by Nyima at 2:43 PM

Labels: Quotes

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dharmanature replied by longchen @ Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:15:06 +0800

http://nyima108.blogspot.com/2006/08/words-of-advice-by-loppn-namdrol.html

Monday, August 14, 2006

Words of Advice by Loppön Namdrol

dharmanature replied by An Eternal Now @ Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:45:26 +0800

http://nyima108.blogspot.com/2006/08/words-of-advice-by-loppn-namdrol.html

Monday, August 14, 2006

Words of Advice by Loppön Namdrol