Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:13:40 +0800

Ahm97sic — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:13:40 +0800

Dear Eternal Now and Wanderer,

Thank you very much for the reply, help and advice.

Appreciate it very much.

Thanks,

With Best Regards,

ahm97sic

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by _wanderer_ @ Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:21:15 +0800

_wanderer_ — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:21:15 +0800

Originally posted by Ahm97sic:

Dear Moderators Sinweiy and Eternal Now,

Thank you very much for the replies, help and advice.

I have downloaded the English Translation of the Tibetain Book of Death as advised by Sinweiy and started to read them now.

Eternal Now, may I know where to buy a printed copy of the Dalai Lama translation of the Tibetian Book of Death ?

Dear Moderators, may I know whether there is any temple that is specialised in the teachings of the Tibetain Book of Death ?

Thank you very much for your kind attention, advice and help.

With Best Regards,

ahm97sic

Hello ,

I am not sure if there is any temple that specialises in the teachings of Tibetan Book of Death.

Sometimes though, some teachers do give teachings on Bardo, which is what this book is essentially about. Most teachers in the Tibetan tradition would also be able to answer your queries regarding this book.

Well, if there are any upcoming teachings on Bardo I could post it on this forum, so perhaps you can keep a lookout for it too.

Good luck ;)

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:17:32 +0800

An Eternal Now — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:17:32 +0800

Originally posted by Ahm97sic:

Dear Moderators Sinweiy and Eternal Now,

Thank you very much for the replies, help and advice.

I have downloaded the English Translation of the Tibetain Book of Death as advised by Sinweiy and started to read them now.

Eternal Now, may I know where to buy a printed copy of the Dalai Lama translation of the Tibetian Book of Death ?

Dear Moderators, may I know whether there is any temple that is specialised in the teachings of the Tibetain Book of Death ?

Thank you very much for your kind attention, advice and help.

With Best Regards,

ahm97sic

If I'm not wrong the Tibetan Book of the Dead should be very popular and in many bookstores, but the sure-have are places like Evergreen (where Buddhist books are available cheaply) and Kinokuniya @ Taka.

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:00:29 +0800

Ahm97sic — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:00:29 +0800

Dear Moderators Sinweiy and Eternal Now,

Thank you very much for the replies, help and advice.

I have downloaded the English Translation of the Tibetain Book of Death as advised by Sinweiy and started to read them now.

Eternal Now, may I know where to buy a printed copy of the Dalai Lama translation of the Tibetian Book of Death ?

Dear Moderators, may I know whether there is any temple that is specialised in the teachings of the Tibetain Book of Death ?

Thank you very much for your kind attention, advice and help.

With Best Regards,

ahm97sic

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:14:58 +0800

An Eternal Now — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:14:58 +0800

Originally posted by Fengyun1991:

Hi guys, i would just like to share or should i say ask whether this explaination of mine is right.

I believe all of you over here certainly do believe in karma.

So one has bad karma therefore resulting in the ripening of the karma and conditions arise thus one will fall sick.

Then when we fall terribly sick and to the extend of ending our own life or committing suicide as mentioned in the previous post earlier on, is it also considered as karma ripening and one has to go through another round of suffering because of ending our own life?

Karma ripens thus leading it to sickness. When the situations gets out of hand, ending the own life may seems the best solution but also has the strongest karma. So i guess probably it is from the start that you will have to face all these, going through another round of suffering.

I am not whether this explaination of mine is right and would like to discuss with people over here.

Thanks

regards.

Can say so, so we do not support suicide and euthanasia and non-acceptance of whatever situations we face.

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:10:00 +0800

An Eternal Now — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:10:00 +0800

Originally posted by Ahm97sic:

Dear Eternal Now,

Thanks for the info. that Dalai Lama has done a translation on the Tibetian book of Death.

Do you happen to know any online sources to the translation ? I am interested to find out more on the Tibetian book of Death.

Please provide the links if you know of any.

Thank you very much for your kind attention and help.

Regards,

ahm97sic

Since Bardo Thogal is a very long text, I think it is better for you to read from a book and not strain your eye.

From my experience, and from research on reading behaviors, you can focus better and read faster reading from printed text instead of from screen.

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by cycle @ Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:23:47 +0800

cycle — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:23:47 +0800

Originally posted by Fengyun1991:

Hi guys, i would just like to share or should i say ask whether this explaination of mine is right.

I believe all of you over here certainly do believe in karma.

So one has bad karma therefore resulting in the ripening of the karma and conditions arise thus one will fall sick.

Then when we fall terribly sick and to the extend of ending our own life or committing suicide as mentioned in the previous post earlier on, is it also considered as karma ripening and one has to go through another round of suffering because of ending our own life?

Karma ripens thus leading it to sickness. When the situations gets out of hand, ending the own life may seems the best solution but also has the strongest karma. So i guess probably it is from the start that you will have to face all these, going through another round of suffering.

I am not whether this explaination of mine is right and would like to discuss with people over here.

Thanks

regards.

Hi fengyun,

Actually this is not a easy question for me also but I think maybe we can see it this way, that is , 'from the start' all of us is going through various kinds of sufferings. We will all fall sick, terminally ill one day( esp when we r super old that is), and faced death eventually through various reasons. So in this sense, we can't say that certain ppl faced certain planned karma to go through acts of commiting suicides. We will all fall sick one day, but to end our own lives is a action we decided to take now( creating a new link of karma?).

There are actions done that cannot be undone already, but we can still change the effects of the results of those past actions. Some are not easy of cos, but it can be done if we want, not matter how long it may take.　因果是通三世的。

All of us have karma, good and bad; its a matter of which comes first. When good karma ripens, be grateful and treasured it, prolong it for the good of yourselves as well as others. When bad karma hits , faced it with courage and take it in your stride. Its not just talk, it really can be done.

So that is why it is of utmost importance that we practice the dharma as soon as possible before it is too late to do so.

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Fengyun1991 @ Fri, 11 Jul 2008 00:55:23 +0800

Fengyun1991 — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 00:55:23 +0800

Hi guys, i would just like to share or should i say ask whether this explaination of mine is right.

I believe all of you over here certainly do believe in karma.

So one has bad karma therefore resulting in the ripening of the karma and conditions arise thus one will fall sick.

Then when we fall terribly sick and to the extend of ending our own life or committing suicide as mentioned in the previous post earlier on, is it also considered as karma ripening and one has to go through another round of suffering because of ending our own life?

Karma ripens thus leading it to sickness. When the situations gets out of hand, ending the own life may seems the best solution but also has the strongest karma. So i guess probably it is from the start that you will have to face all these, going through another round of suffering.

I am not whether this explaination of mine is right and would like to discuss with people over here.

Thanks

regards.

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by sinweiy @ Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:21:49 +0800

sinweiy — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:21:49 +0800

Originally posted by Ahm97sic:

Dear Eternal Now,

Thanks for the info. that Dalai Lama has done a translation on the Tibetian book of Death.

Do you happen to know any online sources to the translation ? I am interested to find out more on the Tibetian book of Death.

Please provide the links if you know of any.

Thank you very much for your kind attention and help.

Regards,

ahm97sic

next best ebook....can sign up and download it, in case they end it.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2059776/Timothy-Leary-The-Tibetan-Book-of-the-Dea

~ The Psychedelic Experience ~

A manual based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead

By Timothy Leary, Ph.D., Ralph Metzner, Ph.D., & Richard Alpert, Ph.D.

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:19:44 +0800

Ahm97sic — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:19:44 +0800

Dear Eternal Now,

Thanks for the info. that Dalai Lama has done a translation on the Tibetian book of Death.

Do you happen to know any online sources to the translation ? I am interested to find out more on the Tibetian book of Death.

Please provide the links if you know of any.

Thank you very much for your kind attention and help.

Regards,

ahm97sic

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:35:56 +0800

An Eternal Now — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:35:56 +0800

Originally posted by Display Name:

You meant the author of <the tibetan book of living and death>, which is sogyal rinpoche?

He isn't the author, the text is actually an ancient Tibetan text, composed by Padmasambhava. (founder of Tibetan Buddhism)

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:33:35 +0800

An Eternal Now — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:33:35 +0800

Originally posted by Ahm97sic:

The author is sogyal rinpoche and his accomplishments and sex-related crimes are related in the entry of wikipedia.

I am in a dilemna. Should I believe or not believe what is taught in the book ? Should I follow the step to step guide towards the process of dying right up to the last breath ?

Anyone well-versed in tibetian ways of living and dying, please advise.

Thanks.

Regards,

ahm97sic

There are other translations of the same Tibetan Text, Bardo Thogal (aka Tibetan Book of the Dead). You may like to check out Dalai Lama's version of translation.

I think Sogyal Rinpoche should be qualified enough and with some degrees of realisation to translate the text. If there are any personal issues or scandals, it is truly unfortunate. Some famous masters with certain degrees of realisation continue to mess up in various ways.

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:15:39 +0800

Ahm97sic — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:15:39 +0800

The author is sogyal rinpoche and his accomplishments and sex-related crimes are related in the entry of wikipedia.

I am in a dilemna. Should I believe or not believe what is taught in the book ? Should I follow the step to step guide towards the process of dying right up to the last breath ?

Anyone well-versed in tibetian ways of living and dying, please advise.

Thanks.

Regards,

ahm97sic

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Display Name @ Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:26:41 +0800

Display Name — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:26:41 +0800

Originally posted by Ahm97sic:

Has anyone read the book of tibetian ways of living and dying ?

Personally, the author has given great insight into the ways of dying ie a step to step guide towards the process of dying right up the last breath.

However, when I do a search on the author hoping to find other books to read further. I am surprised to find that the eminent author has been charged with sex-related charges.

So, I am in a dilemna. Should I believe or not believe what is taught in the book ? Should I follow the step to step guide towards the process of dying right up to the last breath ?

Thank you for the kind attention.

Regards,

ahm97sic

You meant the author of <the tibetan book of living and death>, which is sogyal rinpoche?

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Short Ninja @ Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:52:39 +0800

Short Ninja — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:52:39 +0800

This book should have an impact to whoever reads it regardless of which religion they practice.I find the book makes a lot of sense about the lving and dying

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:46:10 +0800

Ahm97sic — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:46:10 +0800

Has anyone read the book of tibetian ways of living and dying ?

Personally, the author has given great insight into the ways of dying ie a step to step guide towards the process of dying right up the last breath.

However, when I do a search on the author hoping to find other books to read further. I am surprised to find that the eminent author has been charged with sex-related charges.

So, I am in a dilemna. Should I believe or not believe what is taught in the book ? Should I follow the step to step guide towards the process of dying right up to the last breath ?

Thank you for the kind attention.

Regards,

ahm97sic

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Mon, 19 May 2008 19:29:18 +0800

Ahm97sic — Mon, 19 May 2008 19:29:18 +0800

I understand your father-in law's decision to choose to die as he canot take the pain anymore. For him, the endurance level to illness has become so low and he has decided to let go and die as the doctors cannot alleviate his pain so that he can continue to live on and there is no cure for his illness.

For people who have not been seriously illed before, they cannot understand the suffering of these terminally illed persons. Every day, it is a struggle for them especially the doctors have no medication or treatment to help them to cope with the intense discomfort, pain or ill-feeling.

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by guanyu77 @ Sun, 18 May 2008 18:07:58 +0800

guanyu77 — Sun, 18 May 2008 18:07:58 +0800

Hi TS,

First of all, as a free thinker, I hope my answers will not trigger any repurcussions from the Buddhists followers here. I just like to share my thoughts on the topic from a neutral perspective. :)

I believe there is no definite right or wrong answers to the questions you have posed.

Probably let me illustrate using my personal experience:

My wife's father was diagnosed terminally ill a few years back with cancer. We were told he will pass away in 6 months time. (in actual fact, he passed away less than a month after the diagnosis). Our family was devastated when we heard the news. We tried our best to do whatever we can to prolong his life, like looking for Sinsehs, mediums, taking "miracle pills", etc. In the end, my father-in-law chose to die as he cannot take the pain any longer. We respected his decision and discharged him from the hospital. He passed away in our home. So is this committing suicide in your "definition"? Imo, my father-in-law is "committing suicide".

At first we felt regretted to allow him to decide. We felt intense pain and remorse as we might help save his life by looking for more "miracle" methods. But after the pain subsided through these years, we start to question ourselves, have we helped him by allowing him to decide? Till date, we cannot have a definite answer of whether we were right or we were wrong. So instead, we chose to let go of this intense pain and move on with life. Who knows, my father-in-law might be enjoying now in the other realm?

Probably you might question about for the case of those who cannot decide for themselves, like the unconscious people, children, etc. Well again, who knows the unconscious might be happy in their state of coma? Why should we think that they are suffering? Yes, it is very painful for the love ones of the "victim" to see that he/she has to undergo through this process of unconciouness. But again, can we for sure say that the person who is in coma is not happy? I myself cannot answer this too.

To end my comments, I find that, again, there is no definite right or wrong answers to the questions you had posed. The bottom line, imo, is to follow the heart at that moment. For example, so long as the family's decision to let the coma patient end his/her life so as to end the "misery", and this is not due to evil intentions but because of financial constraints/ emotional breakdowns/ etc, it will be a right decision. If the family decides to fight on believing that there is hope for the patient, it will be a right decision too. The family should not focus too much on what is right or what is wrong as this will only bring more misery to the family when they are bogged down by the process of harping too much on whether they had made the "right/wrong" choice. I feel that the family should enjoy the precious moments with the patient as much as possible and not be too overly concern with the decision making. I also feel that the family should also be happy with life even after the loved one has passed away as life will continue anyway. Why should we harp on the past? :)

If I sounded too serious, sorry about my style of writing. :p

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by sofital @ Sat, 17 May 2008 08:15:36 +0800

sofital — Sat, 17 May 2008 08:15:36 +0800

It is true.As long as we don’t attain fourth enlightenment, we are clinging to life.As you know, cling to life is one of the defilements.

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by extra one @ Fri, 16 May 2008 14:26:28 +0800

extra one — Fri, 16 May 2008 14:26:28 +0800

some of you are clinging to life

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Fri, 16 May 2008 11:39:24 +0800

An Eternal Now — Fri, 16 May 2008 11:39:24 +0800

Originally posted by Ahm97sic:

So according to Buddhism, death is the final liberation of all sufferings. We suffer at death only because we cling to life, to our bodies, to our personalities, to material possessions – but if we are not clinging to these things then death is not suffering.

No, this is not what it meant. The Bhikkhu Channa in question is already an Arhat, that means he had attained liberation and nirvana, which means he has transcended the cycle of birth and death in Samsara. For example you and I have not attained enlightenment or Arhatship, so we should not think along the lines of Channa.

For an Arhat, he will not take rebirth again after his life has ended, and will achieve nirvana (cessation). In this case the Buddha said he will take his knife blamelessly because he will not as a result create more karma that leads to rebirth.

In the case of suicide for non-liberated beings, the act of taking one's life is an act of killing and one's action will negative karma. Furthermore such a person will likely be in such a negative mental state that it is easy for him to enter into the lower realms such as the ghost realm.

In the case of Channa, if you look at the Sutta itself, the Buddha said:

ßSàriputta, there may be the families of venerable Channa's friends, well-wishers and earlier relatives, I say, there is no fault to that extent. Sàriputta, if someone gives up this body and seizes another, I say it is a fault. In the bhikkhu that fault is not apparent. Bhikkhu Channa took his life faultlessly.û

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/144-channovada-e.html

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Fri, 16 May 2008 09:01:11 +0800

Ahm97sic — Fri, 16 May 2008 09:01:11 +0800

So according to Buddhism, death is the final liberation of all sufferings. We suffer at death only because we cling to life, to our bodies, to our personalities, to material possessions – but if we are not clinging to these things then death is not suffering.

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Thu, 15 May 2008 19:26:41 +0800

An Eternal Now — Thu, 15 May 2008 19:26:41 +0800

Originally posted by extra one:

AEN told me

No, the Buddha did not encourage him to commit suicide, but he did not stop him.

But please remember that an Arhat is a special case and has gone beyond the cycle of birth and death -- he achieves Nirvana right after his death. If we were to do the same thing we will cycle through samsara again according to our karma. If we kill ourselves and as a result commit negative karma and fall into the lower realms, then we have to reconsider carefully our actions.

The Case of Channa

The case of Channa[12] is the fullest account of a suicide in the Pali Canon. Damien Keown, editor of the Journal of Buddhist Ethics, has produced a detailed analysis of the sutta in an article entitled ‘The Case of Channa’.[13]

Saariputta, Mahaa Cunda and Channa are all living on Vulture’s Peak Mountain, and Channa is very ill. Saariputta suggests to Mahaa Cunda that they visit Channa to see how he is. They find him in a bad state with violent pains in his head and belly, and a burning fever, and his condition is steadily worsening. Channa ends a florid description of his symptoms by saying that he has no desire to live and will therefore ‘use the knife’.

Saariputta is obviously deeply affected. He offers to attend to Channa personally. ‘Let the venerable Channa not use the knife,’ he says, ‘let the venerable Channa live. We want the venerable Channa to live.’[14] But Channa declares that he lacks nothing, that he has worshipped the Teacher with love, and concludes, ‘Friend Saariputta, remember this: the Bhikkhu Channa will use the knife blamelessly’, implying that he is already an arahant and therefore cannot act unskilfully.[15]

Saariputta, however, is clearly not convinced about Channa, and proceeds to question him about his attainments, especially with respect to how Channa regards the six senses, and about self-view. Channa gives the answers that we would expect of an arahant: he is not attached to the six senses and doesn’t cling to any self-view. Saariputta further asks him how he came to these conclusions and Channa answers that he has ‘seen and directly known’ them – that is that they are the result of transcendental insight. Now Mahaa Cunda intervenes; it is clear that he too is not convinced by Channa’s words, and gives Channa some pithy advice on what insight and awakening are really about.

Shortly after Mahaa Cunda and Saariputta have left, Channa cuts his throat and dies. Saariputta then asks the Buddha about the circumstances of Channa’s rebirth. The Buddha, apparently surprised, reminds Saariputta that Channa said that he would ‘use the knife blamelessly’. Saariputta in response expresses his doubts by pointing out that Channa appeared to be blameworthy since he was attached to his family. The Buddha then echoes Channa’s own words to the effect that he was an arahant and his suicide was not an unskilful act.

There is an argument that that in the cases of Godhika, Vakkali, and Channa, the Buddha actually condones their suicides on the grounds that the three bhikkhus were arahants, incapable of acting unskilfully. Indeed, if we only had the suttas to go on we might come to this conclusion ourselves. However, as in Vakkali’s case, the commentaries once again argue that Channa has overestimated his attainment.

Keown is uneasy with the thought that the Buddha is seen to be condoning suicide because it seems out of context with the wider Buddhist reverence for life (c.f. comments on the Paayaasi sutta below). The interpretation relies on viewing ethics solely from the point of view of the motivations of the one who acts. Keown points out that if we look only at motivation then, for instance, murder could be carried out with impunity despite the victim not wanting to die. However, the consequences also need to taken into account. A person deprived of life will suffer and an act that leads to suffering is judged to be unskilful, even if it is carried out with no apparent ill will.

While the Buddha is not critical of either Godhika or Vakkali, it is only in the case of Channa that he appears to make an unequivocal statement exonerating suicide. He says of Channa:

‘Saariputta, when one lays down this body and clings to a new body, then I say that that one is blameworthy. There was none of that in the Bhikkhu Channa; the Bhikkhu Channa used the knife blamelessly.’[16]

The first sentence of this statement is not related to suicide. It is clinging to a new body which is blameworthy. This could be read as the Buddha simply making use of a tragic situation to highlight a point of Dharma, much as we often do at funerals. The second sentence is the crux of the problem and to Keown it comes down to the difference between condoning an act and exonerating someone who acts. The Buddha was not making a generalised statement about the acceptability of suicide; he was exonerating Channa in this particular case. This weakens the case of those claiming that suicide amongst arahants is acceptable, and accords with the previous two cases.

A second point arises out of translation issues. Saariputta enquires about Channa’s next rebirth and the Buddha replies, ‘Saariputta, didn’t the Bhikkhu Channa declare to you his blamelessness (anupavajja).’[17] Keown suggests, on the basis of the commentary, that the word ‘anupavajja’ would be better translated in this context as ‘not being reborn’.[18] In this case Keown says, ‘I think that when we place the Buddha’s statement (quoted above) in context, we see that the Buddha is offering not an exoneration of suicide but a clarification of the meaning of anupavajja for Saariputta’s benefit.’[19]

Keown then moves onto the commentary, which informs us that Channa was not considered to be an arahant before his suicide, despite his claim.[20] He wonders why, given that the writers of the commentary could not have reconstructed events with any accuracy, they should have been at pains for us to know that Channa was not an arahant before he took the knife.

Keown offers three reasons why the commentary might have objected to us believing Channa’s claim. The first is that an arahant is said to be unable to kill a living being intentionally. ‘Death-dealing acts of any kind are certainly not in keeping with the canonical paradigm of a calm and serene Arhat.’[21] The second is Channa’s apparent inability to tolerate pain which ‘shows a lack of self-mastery unbecoming to an Arhat.’[22] The third is that it was possibly an attempt to distance the Buddhists from certain practices of other religious groups, especially the Jain practice of sallekhanaa, or fast to death (although, as we will see, this was not a concern for the Pali commentary to the Vinaya). The other aspect of the commentarial text is that it contains no discussion of the ethics of suicide and, in particular, no reference to the Vinaya rule that forbids suicide by monks.[23] Keown says, ‘By holding that Channa gained enlightenment only after he had begun the attempt on his life, the commentary neatly avoids the dilemma of an Arhat breaking the precepts.’[24]

With his analysis of the contextual and translation factors, Keown has weakened the case for believing that the Buddha condoned arahants committing suicide. By displaying an apparent abhorrence for such a belief, the authors of the Pali commentary weaken the case even further. However, the fact remains that in the three cases so far examined, these men did commit suicide and yet were not reborn.

In conclusion Keown says:

‘What Buddhism values is not death, but life … a person who opts for death believing it to be a solution to suffering has fundamentally misunderstood the First Noble Truth … what is significant is that through the affirmation of death he has, in his heart, embraced Maara.’ [25]

However, by focusing on only one of the three stories we’ve looked at, Keown has minimised the reinforcement that occurs with repetition. The fact is that not one but three arahants,or near-arahants, chose suicide and succeeded in attaining final Nibbaana. Also it is not clear whether, in taking their own lives, any of the three were affirming death. In the case of Godhika the opposite point seems to be being made: that he was not clinging to life! So while it seems clearly established that the Buddha is not lauding suicide, it is by no means clear that he is condemning it.

Immediately preceding this sutta in the Majjhima Nikaaya is the story of the death of the lay disciple Anaathapi.n.d.ika,[26] who describes the pains of his illness in identical terms to those used by Channa when he was visited by Saariputta. Saariputta gives him a profound discourse on not clinging to sense experience, nor to this world nor to the next world (i.e. rebirth), which moves Anathapi.n.d.ika to tears. He is not overwhelmed by despair as Saariputta fears, but with joy and gratitude at hearing such a profound discourse which, being a layman, he has never heard the like of before, even though he was a long time disciple of the Buddha and a stream entrant. He dies soon afterwards and is reborn in the Tu.sita heaven. Despite having identical pains, Anathapin.d.ika does not despair; does not even seem to contemplate suicide, even though, on the face of it, he is much less spiritually advanced than Channa. And yet he is reborn in a deva realm, which, while a very pleasant place to be, is still part of sa.msaara, still tinged with suffering: Channa, on the other hand, escapes suffering altogether.

Keown suggests that moha, or delusion, is the underlying cause of suicide, a failure to appreciate that death is the greatest suffering. As we have seen, according to the Buddhist tradition, death is a form of suffering, but Keown appears to overlook the evidence that he himself has presented. Death was not the greatest suffering for Channa, nor for Godhika, nor Vakkali. Indeed we might say that the opposite is true;

that for them the greatest suffering was living, and that their death at their own hands led to their final liberation from all suffering. We suffer at death only because we cling to life, to our bodies, to our personalities, to material possessions – but if we are not clinging to these things then death is not suffering. I think we have to conclude that for Channa, and the others, as for the Buddha and all the other arahants, death did not involve suffering.

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by sofital @ Thu, 15 May 2008 16:34:57 +0800

sofital — Thu, 15 May 2008 16:34:57 +0800

Originally posted by extra one:

he encouraged one particular arhat to suicide cos the arhat has headaches or something that prevented enlightenment

Please describe the story details if you know .

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by cycle @ Thu, 15 May 2008 13:20:28 +0800

cycle — Thu, 15 May 2008 13:20:28 +0800

Originally posted by extra one:

AEN told me

AEN pls enlighten us.

Recent Posts in 'Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide' | sgForums.com

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:13:40 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by _wanderer_ @ Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:21:15 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:17:32 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:00:29 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:14:58 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:10:00 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by cycle @ Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:23:47 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Fengyun1991 @ Fri, 11 Jul 2008 00:55:23 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by sinweiy @ Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:21:49 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:19:44 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:35:56 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:33:35 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:15:39 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Display Name @ Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:26:41 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Short Ninja @ Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:52:39 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:46:10 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Mon, 19 May 2008 19:29:18 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by guanyu77 @ Sun, 18 May 2008 18:07:58 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by sofital @ Sat, 17 May 2008 08:15:36 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by extra one @ Fri, 16 May 2008 14:26:28 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Fri, 16 May 2008 11:39:24 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by Ahm97sic @ Fri, 16 May 2008 09:01:11 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by An Eternal Now @ Thu, 15 May 2008 19:26:41 +0800

The Case of Channa

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by sofital @ Thu, 15 May 2008 16:34:57 +0800

Meaning of Life, Death and Suicide replied by cycle @ Thu, 15 May 2008 13:20:28 +0800