Sahaja Yoga meditation replied by An Eternal Now @ Thu, 08 May 2008 16:21:05 +0800

An Eternal Now — Thu, 08 May 2008 16:21:05 +0800

Originally posted by Rondosky:

hi everyone...

Sahaja yoga is different in a sense one can get their self realisation first rather that being the aim. It is a tangible experience which most people can feel. Only with the help of the primordial energy within, one can go into the thoughtlessness which is the state of No-self. All ego n conditionings drop off. n is jsut complete connection with divine.

The thoughtless and egoless state of pure presence is the 'I AM' I am talking about. Its not a concept of a self, its the vivid pure beingness. It is without personality/ego and a pure state of beingness/energy/existence/awareness which is not confined to thoughts or body or anything. 'Thoughtless awareness' as you said.

Also there is a huge misunderstanding what No-Self (Anatta) means in Buddhism... it is not talking about a stage or a state void of personality or ego or conditionings...

As a comment written in my blog:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

...First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing from personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no self apart from arising and passing. A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. (related article: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/07/bernadette-roberts-interview.html) This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).

To put further emphasis on the importance of this point, I would like to borrow from the Bahiya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html) that ‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’ as an illustration. When a person says that I have gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’, he is mistaken. When it is taken to be a stage, it is illusory. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the seal of no-self. Therefore to a non dualist, the practice is in understanding the illusionary views of the sense of self and the split. Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of 'presence'. This purest presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the spontaneous nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things dualistically (also see my other friend Longchen’s article http://www.dreamdatum.com/meditation-spontaneous.html where I posted two of his articles including ‘How is nonduality like?’ in this forum)...

This is only the start of the journey of ascent.

This is true. To catch a glimpse of awareness is not difficult, to understand the true nature of it and not being misled by our experience is most difficult. As our moderator Longchen has said previously,

...Also, equally important is that the initial first glimpse of it, will very quickly be miscontrued too. And therefore is also not synonymous to enlightenment. But it can be described as an initial awakening.

Beyond the first glimpsed is a continuous series of refinements towards the ability to understand it better. This usually happens in a series of major insights or realisations plus countless cycles of mini-self recognitions (or pattern clearing). These can take years or even lifetimes...

An old post by Thusness:

Transcendental glimpses are misled by the cognitive faculty of our mind. That mode of cognition is dualistic. All is Mind but this mind is not to be taken as ‘Self’. “I Am”, Eternal Witness, are all products of our cognition and is the root cause that prevents true seeing.

The ‘who’, ‘where’ and ‘when’, the ‘I’, ‘here’ and ‘now’ must ultimately give way to the experience of total transparency. Do not fall back to a source, just the manifestation is sufficient. This will become so clear that total transparency is experienced. When total transparency is stabilized, transcendental body is experienced and dharmakaya is seen everywhere. This is the samadhi bliss of Bodhisattva. This is the fruition of practice.

Experience all appearance with total vitality, vividness and clarity. They are really our Pristine Awareness, every moment and everywhere in all its manifolds and diversities. When causes and conditions is, manifestation is, when manifestation is, Awareness is. All is the one reality.

Sahaja Yoga meditation replied by Rondosky @ Thu, 08 May 2008 14:32:57 +0800

Rondosky — Thu, 08 May 2008 14:32:57 +0800

hi everyone...

Sahaja yoga is different in a sense one can get their self realisation first rather that being the aim. It is a tangible experience which most people can feel. Only with the help of the primordial energy within, one can go into the thoughtlessness which is the state of No-self. All ego n conditionings drop off. n is jsut complete connection with divine. This is only the start of the journey of ascent.

Sahaja Yoga meditation replied by rokkie @ Tue, 06 May 2008 15:42:35 +0800

rokkie — Tue, 06 May 2008 15:42:35 +0800

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Actually the Buddha has taught insight meditation in a very systematic way that everyone can experience himself. So it is certainly not the case in Buddhism that "Their words could describe the state but they could not describe the process by which it was achieved."

"Their words could describe the state but they could not describe the process by which it was achieved

yes ,somehow,word is always powerless,when u reach a state where encounter ultimate bliss,

Sahaja Yoga meditation replied by rokkie @ Tue, 06 May 2008 15:40:43 +0800

rokkie — Tue, 06 May 2008 15:40:43 +0800

thoughtless awareness

well said

Sahaja Yoga meditation replied by An Eternal Now @ Tue, 06 May 2008 12:03:43 +0800

An Eternal Now — Tue, 06 May 2008 12:03:43 +0800

Originally posted by Rondosky:

Meditation has been described by many saints, prophets and enlightened souls. Their words could describe the state but they could not describe the process by which it was achieved. It was a mystery, the great unknown and the secret to the happiness and peace in life.

Actually the Buddha has taught insight meditation in a very systematic way that everyone can experience himself. So it is certainly not the case in Buddhism that "Their words could describe the state but they could not describe the process by which it was achieved."

Sahaja Yoga meditation replied by An Eternal Now @ Tue, 06 May 2008 11:28:56 +0800

An Eternal Now — Tue, 06 May 2008 11:28:56 +0800

Yes it is unfortunate there is such a lack of understanding about enlightenment... almost everyone have a different understanding of enlightenment... most often completely off. Then also very commonly as you have written in your article http://www.dreamdatum.com/enlightenment-state.html, "There seems to be a notion that enlightenment is just one final state. Many also believe that when one has certain transcendental or mystical experience, that experience is final and complete."

Most often when someone realises the "I AM" it is thought to be the final realisation and then equated to the enlightenment of all other enlightened beings like the Buddha and arhats and so on... because of the wrong understanding and thought that there is only one state to enlightenment. And a wrong understanding of our true nature pervasive in the teachings in non-Buddhist circles but sometimes also within Buddhism as well.

Sahaja Yoga meditation replied by longchen @ Tue, 06 May 2008 07:31:17 +0800

longchen — Tue, 06 May 2008 07:31:17 +0800

This thread reminds me of one incident last month.

I was in one shopping center and i saw a shopfront advertising Prana and Arhatic Yoga course.

Well, naturally, i was curious and went in to have a look. I have a chat with one of the persons inside. I think she is a staff or student of the course.

I was looking through the brochures and ask her why the word 'Arhat' was used for the Yoga course. Another lady overhead the conversation and say that the course is pitching at the same level as the Buddhist Arhat.

Having browsed thru some of the brochures, I told her it is not the same. She seems to be in a hurry and asked me to check out their website.

I check out their website. Their teacher talk about I AM oneness realisation.

Indeed, it is not the same level of realisation as the Arhat. The teacher is at I AM level understanding. It is sad that the followers cannot tell the difference.

People are doing business and earning from it. So, i thought better not to disrupt their livelihood by telling them. Also, the chances of them believing what i say will be very slim...

Sahaja Yoga meditation replied by An Eternal Now @ Tue, 06 May 2008 01:09:50 +0800

An Eternal Now — Tue, 06 May 2008 01:09:50 +0800

This Pure Awareness is mistaken to be the I AM, Observer of our body & mind, the eternal Self, the unchanging background reality where surface transient reality changes rise and falls while the background remains unchanged. This is realised to be not the case when there is the insight into No-Self/Non-Duality -- that in truth the observer is the observed, there is no I AM or background or Witness. As I have wrote recently in another forum:

http://community.beliefnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9505&page=8

Quote:

Originally Posted by silence_speaks

Hi,

When the topic of this discussion is "Soul" why are we discussing about "self" - an individual entity ?

Is not "Soul" a Hindu concept ? Are we discussing about the "Soul" in Hindu context ?

IF this is so ...

Soul or Atman, is spoken of in the Scriptures as not individual ... The idea that its "my soul" [jivatma] and "your soul" is considered a False idea in Hinduism. It is not individual nor is it time bound.

The Upanishads clearly state: That which you call Atman is just Pure Awareness --- Suddha Chaitanya Rupam ... Just Pure Awareness. Untouched by the activities of the mind. They clearly state: Mano Budhi Ahamkara Chittani na ham [This is not mind, intellect, ego or consciousness]... This is from Nirvana Shatakam.

So if you want to discuss "Existence or non-Existence of Soul" Talk about "Existence or non- Existence of Awareness" and not "Existence or non existence of some individualized entity like self" --- As that anyways is not the Hindu Version of Soul.

Love!
Silence

The experiential experience/realisation of Atman/Brahman, is not Buddha-Nature. Buddha-Nature is not the background reality of thoughts and perceptions. When Buddha taught Anatta, he is not talking about non-ego and impersonality of Pure Awareness, he clearly experienced Atman-Brahman and he is differentiating this experience from his realisation upon his awakening. Otherwise, he would not have taught a doctrine different from the teachings of the days.

Buddha Nature is not a Self or Witness or an unchanging background container of experience. There is NO witness, NO background..

Buddha Nature is not the transcendent 'I AM'. Buddha-Nature is not the background reality where transient thoughts arise and subside leaving the background reality unchanged. Buddha-Nature is not the Eternal Witness.

In truth... the brilliance of our nature is not found apart from the arising and ceasing, its nature is empty, and the deep impression that this 'brilliance' is permanent and unchanging and unimaginably real, only exists in subtle thinking and recalling. Every arising and dissolving of thoughts and perceptions is as vivid as it can be, and at the same time empty. The aware-emptiness is not split off from the transience -- it IS the transience and there is no background behind it.

No watcher needed, the process itself knows and rolls as Venerable Buddhaghosa writes in the Visuddhi Magga. All appearances are self-luminous and empty. They are all Buddha-Nature. They are all expression of Mind/Mind-Essence (I don't mean the 'conceptual mind'). For in truth, the hearing is the heard, there is no hearer. In the seeing, there is only the seen, no seer. In the thinking, there is simply thoughts, no thinker. Deeds are done, but no doer thereof. All are free expressions of empty-luminous-appearances with no agent or center of experience.

And all are empty of any inherent reality or essence, what appears are only Appearances as such -- empty of inherent existence, essence, or soul. There is also no inherent behind/background reality. Buddha-Nature is Empty -- it is defined as Luminosity and Emptiness inseparable and is expressing in all Appearances.

Our true nature is non-dual (in Buddhist context which has a different meaning), it is empty, and this is what Buddhism is unique -- the teachings of Anatta, the teachings of Emptiness (Dependent Arising).

I would like to refer you to my friend's 6 stages of experience who describes much better than me and from direct experience and deep realisations of what he is talking about --

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.c...xperience.html

and also http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.c...of-amness.html

I would like to elaborate on the 'Emptiness' aspect of Buddha-nature.

Like a red flower that is so vivid, clear and right in front of an observer, the “redness” only appears to “belong” to the flower, it is in actuality not so. Vision of red does not arise in all animal species (dogs cannot perceive colours) nor is the “redness” an attribute of the mind. If given a “quantum eyesight” to look into the atomic structure, there is similarly no attribute “redness” anywhere found, only almost complete space/void with no perceivable shapes and forms. Whatever appearances are dependently arisen, and hence is empty of any inherent existence or fixed attributes, shapes, form, or “redness” -- merely luminous yet empty, mere Appearances without inherent/objective existence. What gives rise to the differences of colours and experiences in each of us? Dependent arising... hence empty of inherent existence. This is the nature of all phenomena.

As you've seen, there is no ‘The Flowerness’ seen by a dog, an insect or us, or beings from other realms (which really may have a completely different mode of perception). ‘The flowerness’ is an illusion that does not stay even for a moment, merely an aggregate of causes and conditions. Analogous to the example of ‘flowerness’, there is no ‘selfness’ serving as a background witnessing either -- pristine awareness is not the witnessing background. Rather, the entire whole of the moment of manifestation is our pristine awareness; lucidly clear, yet empty of inherent existence. This the way of ‘seeing’ the one as many, the observer and the observed are one and the same. This is also the meaning of formlessness and attribute-less of our nature.

Because the karmic propensity of perceiving subject/object duality is so strong, pristine awareness is quickly attributed to 'I', Atman, the ultimate Subject, Witness, background, eternal, formless, odorless, colorless, thoughtless and void of any attributes, and we unknowingly objectified these attributes into an ‘entity’ and make it an eternal background or an emptiness void. When this is done, it prevents us from experiencing the color, texture, fabric and manifesting nature of awareness. Suddenly thoughts are being grouped into another category and disowned. In actual case, thoughts think and sound hears. The observer has always been the observed. In naked awareness, there is no splitting of attributes and objectification of these attributes into different groups of the same experience. So thoughts and sense perceptions are not disowned and “impermanence nature” taken in wholeheartedly in the experience of no-self. ‘Impermanence’ is never what it seems to be, never what that is understood in conceptual thoughts. ‘Impermanence’ is not what the mind has conceptualized it to be. In non-dual experience, the true face of impermanence nature is experienced as happening without movement, change without going anywhere. This is the “what is” of impermanence. It is just so.

Zen Master Dogen: "Impermanence is Buddha-Nature."

Sahaja Yoga meditation replied by An Eternal Now @ Tue, 06 May 2008 00:55:12 +0800

An Eternal Now — Tue, 06 May 2008 00:55:12 +0800

Thanks for sharing this. But as a Buddhist forum, we have our regulations to limit to only the promotion of Buddhist teachings and practices... hence I might be locking this thread after some time. You may find some other more appropriate forums to post in sgForums...

This forum welcomes spiritual discussions (and non-spiritualists) from all traditions/non-traditions... but our policy is not to allow promotion of practices belonging to other religions.

With regards to "Self-realization is the awakening of our own pure energy that lies dormant within us", and from one of the Sahaja Yoga websites "Now the truth is that you are not this body, mind, your ego, your conditionings, intelligence, emotions, but you are the Spirit."

That is only a part of the path and not yet enlightenment in Buddhism, but is often an initial awakening for spiritual practitioners. The realisation of the I AM Presence (the realisation that you are not the body and mind and ego but pure Spirit) which is pure consciousness does not yet come with the realisation of No-Self (which is not only no-ego but no I AM/Witness)/Non-Duality and Emptiness. For that, there must be progressive insights into the nature of Presence/reality.

Our moderator Thusness have written from personal experience 6 stages of experiences of Presence (from I AM to No-Self/Non-Dual to Emptiness [which in Buddhist context does not mean 'the Void']): http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

Sahaja Yoga meditation replied by Rondosky @ Tue, 06 May 2008 00:16:17 +0800

Rondosky — Tue, 06 May 2008 00:16:17 +0800

Despite all its popularity, today very few of us truly know what meditation is. Some regard meditation is the mental concentration on something, others consider that we meditate when we imagine something that gives us peace or satisfaction. In reality, meditation is a state of thoughtless awareness. It is not an act of doing - it is a state of awareness. We either in this state or we are not, regardless of what we are doing in life.

Meditation has been described by many saints, prophets and enlightened souls. Their words could describe the state but they could not describe the process by which it was achieved. It was a mystery, the great unknown and the secret to the happiness and peace in life. In 1970, Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, opened a gate for all of us to experience what meditation really is ourselves. No longer do we need books describing what it is - anyone can experience the state of meditation through simple and natural techniques.

Meditation can only be achieved through the process known as "self-realization". Self-realization is the awakening of our own pure energy that lies dormant within us - unknown and unsuspected.

Free Sahaja Yoga meditation class starting 13th May 08(every Tues) at 7.30pm

Address: AEC Business School, Faber Room

167 Jln Bt Merah

Connection 1, Tower 4(Near old HDB office)

Contact: 98564587

www.sahajayoga-sg.org

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