同居是邪淫？ replied by rokkie @ Sat, 10 May 2008 14:38:15 +0800

rokkie — Sat, 10 May 2008 14:38:15 +0800

yup, i think 3 .4 .5 are very difficult to follow.No lying ,yup ,i have to say white lies,somehow sometime.But i think it's an expedient way to make life easy.Buddhism also teach expedient.I think the lye we should oppose is the one u do with evil intentions.

intoxicated drinks is hard to avoid also ,if u r in the industry.When talking about business,seems it's quite often need some alcohole.

同居是邪淫？ replied by wilsonhao @ Sat, 10 May 2008 14:26:00 +0800

wilsonhao — Sat, 10 May 2008 14:26:00 +0800

Originally posted by rokkie:

the 5 precepts to laymen are really harsh.I don't think laymen can adhere to it fully,sutras is more usefull to who want to abstain from delusion and hatre,buddhism is not tell u cannot do sth,but make u reveal to ur Anattman,and u do'nt want to do bad things.

Actually the 5 precept is not really that harsh to me. However, there is no easy path. Even christianity is not easy. If any religion is easy, then the one is not practising it. The standard of 5 precepts depend on each person's intepretation.

5 precepts:

1) no killing(intentionally) - this can be done if we open a compassionate heart and try not to harm animals or kill insects and so on. If killing is inevitable, we must repent.

2) no stealing - theres no reason why we shld still anything..becos' we shld work hard to get what we want and not steal. Stealing will cause one to face the law anyway.

3)abstain from sexual misconduct - this is the most difficult to define, due to different views among buddhis traditions. However the main basic idea is to be faithful to one's life partner and dont create adultary. Sexual misconduct should not be viewed as a sin( 'sin' is a christian context) but bad karma, because it breaks up relationship and so on.

4) no lying - this is sometimes quite difficult, especially white lies. This is something all of us must learn. However if lying is inevitable, we must repent.

5) no intoxicated drinks and drugs - science has already proven that intoxicated drinks and drugs is bad for health and ruins people's life. Therefore since we know the harmful effects, it would be unwise for us to consume it anymore. They will only cause suffering to our physical body.

同居是邪淫？ replied by rokkie @ Sat, 10 May 2008 13:38:09 +0800

rokkie — Sat, 10 May 2008 13:38:09 +0800

Originally posted by wilsonhao:

The path of laymen and the path of the sangha/practioner is different, first we must accept that. The Buddha said it clearly that laymen should try to practice the 5 precepts to accumulate better karma and reborn in a better place next life. Buddha however, did not insist laymen to strive for nirvana, but only to the sangha. Buddha knew that we are all human and abstaining from desires, hatred and igorance is already not an easy task. By following the 5 precepts, we may in hope reduce the desires, hatred and ignorance we previously had. Buddha also knew that the path of spiritual is not easy, and that what laymen can do at least is to do good and avoid evil. Thats generally the rule.

But for practioners, it is a more strict rule. This path is for people who are determined to strive for nirvana. It involves the giving up of desires and passions etc.

the 5 precepts to laymen are really harsh.I don't think laymen can adhere to it fully,sutras is more usefull to who want to abstain from delusion and hatre,buddhism is not tell u cannot do sth,but make u reveal to ur Anattman,and u do'nt want to do bad things.

同居是邪淫？ replied by wilsonhao @ Sat, 10 May 2008 13:33:20 +0800

wilsonhao — Sat, 10 May 2008 13:33:20 +0800

The path of laymen and the path of the sangha/practioner is different, first we must accept that. The Buddha said it clearly that laymen should try to practice the 5 precepts to accumulate better karma and reborn in a better place next life. Buddha however, did not insist laymen to strive for nirvana, but only to the sangha. Buddha knew that we are all human and abstaining from desires, hatred and igorance is already not an easy task. By following the 5 precepts, we may in hope reduce the desires, hatred and ignorance we previously had. Buddha also knew that the path of spiritual is not easy, and that what laymen can do at least is to do good and avoid evil. Thats generally the rule.

But for practioners, it is a more strict rule. This path is for people who are determined to strive for nirvana. It involves the giving up of desires and passions etc.

同居是邪淫？ replied by rokkie @ Sat, 10 May 2008 13:04:32 +0800

rokkie — Sat, 10 May 2008 13:04:32 +0800

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

That was Devadatta. He already became a monk and a disciple when he wanted to kill him. He was already part of the Sangha, and wanted to cause schism, kill the Buddha, and so on.

He finally succeeded in hurting the Buddha but failed to kill him (Buddhas cannot be killed). He also failed his attempt to cause schism in the sangha. For these karma he was going to enter Avici hell (the 'lowest' hell, the hell with the most sufferings and timespan)

But the Buddha allowed him to become a monk because he knew that the merits accumulated through the practice of jhanas (which he mastered) will cause him to attain Pratyekabuddhahood a long long time after he finished his karma in avici hell. If he didnt let him into the sangha, he would not have that opportunity.

i remember a story about nagarjuna ,someone want to kill him ,but he know he can't do that ,because nagarjuna got magics.So he figured a way out.Someday he met nagarjuna ,and say ,"can u give me ur head".This is a dilemma,if nagarjuna still care about live and death ,he is not awaken,He can humiliate him,if he drop off everything, He can kill him.

And the story ends like nagarjuna kill himself

同居是邪淫？ replied by An Eternal Now @ Sat, 10 May 2008 00:22:15 +0800

An Eternal Now — Sat, 10 May 2008 00:22:15 +0800

Originally posted by rokkie:

i remember one bro of him want to kill him ,right?And finally become his discple

That was Devadatta. He already became a monk and a disciple when he wanted to kill him. He was already part of the Sangha, and wanted to cause schism, kill the Buddha, and so on.

He finally succeeded in hurting the Buddha but failed to kill him (Buddhas cannot be killed). He also failed his attempt to cause schism in the sangha. For these karma he was going to enter Avici hell (the 'lowest' hell, the hell with the most sufferings and timespan)

But the Buddha allowed him to become a monk because he knew that the merits accumulated through the practice of jhanas (which he mastered) will cause him to attain Pratyekabuddhahood a long long time after he finished his karma in avici hell. If he didnt let him into the sangha, he would not have that opportunity.

同居是邪淫？ replied by rokkie @ Fri, 09 May 2008 21:23:10 +0800

rokkie — Fri, 09 May 2008 21:23:10 +0800

i remember one bro of him want to kill him ,right?And finally become his discple

同居是邪淫？ replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 07 May 2008 17:57:02 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 07 May 2008 17:57:02 +0800

p.s. His father also attained arhatship. His mother went to heaven 7 days after giving birth to Shakyamuni and so did not attained arhatship, but received a teaching by Buddha at the heaven of thirty three gods.

同居是邪淫？ replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 07 May 2008 17:54:32 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 07 May 2008 17:54:32 +0800

Originally posted by rokkie:

buddha also get married ,and have a son,maybe.because at that time it's not acceptable for ppl being alone.

He had a son, his son was Rahula, he became a monk at 7 years old. His wife also became a nun. Both of them attained Arhatship.

同居是邪淫？ replied by rokkie @ Wed, 07 May 2008 17:51:00 +0800

rokkie — Wed, 07 May 2008 17:51:00 +0800

go for dinner liao

同居是邪淫？ replied by rokkie @ Wed, 07 May 2008 17:49:42 +0800

rokkie — Wed, 07 May 2008 17:49:42 +0800

buddha also get married ,and have a son,maybe.because at that time it's not acceptable for ppl being alone.

同居是邪淫？ replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 07 May 2008 17:45:34 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 07 May 2008 17:45:34 +0800

Originally posted by rokkie:

i was wondering ,r u looking forward to marriage in the future ,or u want to devote urself in buddhism,never married.no offence

Hard to say...

同居是邪淫？ replied by rokkie @ Wed, 07 May 2008 17:39:54 +0800

rokkie — Wed, 07 May 2008 17:39:54 +0800

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Yes I think marriage is still the best option

i was wondering ,r u looking forward to marriage in the future ,or u want to devote urself in buddhism,never married.no offence

同居是邪淫？ replied by rokkie @ Wed, 07 May 2008 17:37:31 +0800

rokkie — Wed, 07 May 2008 17:37:31 +0800

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Yes I think marriage is still the best option

and i think faithfulness is tricky ,having sex with someone else u don't love is unfaithful or love someone else u don't laid is unfaithful ,it's hard to say

同居是邪淫？ replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 07 May 2008 17:35:23 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 07 May 2008 17:35:23 +0800

Originally posted by rokkie:

i feel that most ppl who don't want to get married ,is because they don't want to fulfill responsbility,without marriage ,u can suddenly broke up with ur gf ,bf.If a man don't want to marry his girl ,i don't know the reason,is it because he is not sure about the relationship?faithfulness is important,but with marriage ,it's secured.I think there r some section in law punish the unloyal wife or husband.
Most country encourage marriage,because it guaranty the relationship.And marriage is a form ,that ur relationship is protected by law.And i don't see the differring culture of marriage,family is basic union of society,as long as every family is harmony,society will be harmony,and steady.with the family ppl will not do extreme things,that's an important factor about family or marriage

Yes I think marriage is still the best option

同居是邪淫？ replied by rokkie @ Wed, 07 May 2008 17:29:54 +0800

rokkie — Wed, 07 May 2008 17:29:54 +0800

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Marriage is just a formality and as you said a 'legal bond', and the culture of marriage differs from places. Some partners stay faithful to each other without marriage and I think that's perfectly fine. On the other hand some people are married but yet do not stay faithful to each other.

What's important is 'faithfulness' so of course one must be committed to the other. Marriage is a way to stay committed so it is preferable for most people and there are benefits from it. But I don't think it's a 'must'.

As for pre-marital sex, it should be avoided if one knows that the relationship will not last or one is still not sure. Also, as I said earlier, one must be ready to raise a family. If one becomes pregnant and thinks of abortion, that is being irresponsible.

i feel that most ppl who don't want to get married ,is because they don't want to fulfill responsbility,without marriage ,u can suddenly broke up with ur gf ,bf.If a man don't want to marry his girl ,i don't know the reason,is it because he is not sure about the relationship?faithfulness is important,but with marriage ,it's secured.I think there r some section in law punish the unloyal wife or husband.
Most country encourage marriage,because it guaranty the relationship.And marriage is a form ,that ur relationship is protected by law.And i don't see the differring culture of marriage,family is basic union of society,as long as every family is harmony,society will be harmony,and steady.with the family ppl will not do extreme things,that's an important factor about family or marriage

同居是邪淫？ replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 07 May 2008 16:54:45 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 07 May 2008 16:54:45 +0800

Originally posted by rokkie:

pre marriage sex is regarded as a moral conduct.And before marriage we all say beauty words to each other,but in fact there is no bound for the two.After marriage ,at least there is a form called law to protect this relationship.So in asian, ppl try to restrict pre marriage sex.

and i think why buddhsim restrict sex, is because it make u lose control of your mind

Marriage is just a formality and as you said a 'legal bond', and the culture of marriage differs from places. Some partners stay faithful to each other without marriage and I think that's perfectly fine. On the other hand some people are married but yet do not stay faithful to each other.

What's important is 'faithfulness' so of course one must be committed to the other. Marriage is a way to stay committed so it is preferable for most people and there are benefits from it. But I don't think it's a 'must'.

As for pre-marital sex, it should be avoided if one knows that the relationship will not last or one is still not sure. Also, as I said earlier, one must be ready to raise a family. If one becomes pregnant and thinks of abortion, that is being irresponsible.

同居是邪淫？ replied by Bodhi hut @ Wed, 07 May 2008 15:08:21 +0800

Bodhi hut — Wed, 07 May 2008 15:08:21 +0800

妄相消除现智光
大佛顶如来蜜因修证了义诸菩萨万行首楞严经白话（上）

http://bodhihut.17.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1160

大佛顶如来蜜因修证了义诸菩萨万行首楞严经白话（下）
http://bodhihut.17.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1158

同居是邪淫？ replied by rokkie @ Wed, 07 May 2008 13:19:46 +0800

rokkie — Wed, 07 May 2008 13:19:46 +0800

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

If young ppl get into BGR they should avoid sex for practical reasons -- not to get pregnant, they're still studying, they may not stay together for long. They are not ready to start a family yet. Always be mindful that abortion is killing and be responsible for both your child and your karma. Use contraception whenever necessary.

So it's not that sex is inherently wrong without marriage, with or without marriage is only a social and cultural behavior. What is important is to use wisdom, and of course, be moral -- i.e. be faithful to your partner and not have extramarital affairs.

pre marriage sex is regarded as a moral conduct.And before marriage we all say beauty words to each other,but in fact there is no bound for the two.After marriage ,at least there is a form called law to protect this relationship.So in asian, ppl try to restrict pre marriage sex.

and i think why buddhsim restrict sex, is because it make u lose control of your mind

同居是邪淫？ replied by cycle @ Wed, 07 May 2008 13:17:17 +0800

cycle — Wed, 07 May 2008 13:17:17 +0800

Originally posted by Fyn.loy:

i was so wrong, at first was told that having intimacy with other than one spouse is 邪淫. Never never knew it was otherwise. Like that no need marry liao

Don't worry, still can marry.

Undesirable sexual behaviours are quite broad, so after understanding more, as Buddhists, we should slowly eliminated them one by one according to our abilities and circumtances. The first few examples of undesirable conducts are easy to indentify and be given up easily and naturally. I think you are more concern of sexual behaviours between a truly loving couple.

What JiKiat said is very true. So I think even sexual behaviour between married couple should not be overly excessive. One reason is that does such behaviour really neccessary for relationship bonding? Or has it more to do with sexual gratifications for oneself? I think once we are clear of this, we will know what to do naturally, no worries. Just like eating meat, we can chose to eat less or give up totally, or don't care at all. But i do agree that our partner play a big role in achieving the way of life we want to lead. So, chose your life partner carefully, don't cohabitat so fast.

Of cos, normally, a married couple would like to have children of their own, in this case sexual intimacy is neccessary for procreation purposes. But I think after our 'quota 'of kids have been achieved, and/or both partners have come to a certain age ( sorry, just my opinion, I feel married or unmarried senior folks should not indulge in this anymore, but spend more time and resources on wisdom building), we should understand that sexual conducts are just that: sexual activities. Such pleasure attachments should be drop if possible.

同居是邪淫？ replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 07 May 2008 10:31:10 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 07 May 2008 10:31:10 +0800

Originally posted by Fyn.loy:

i was so wrong, at first was told that having intimacy with other than one spouse is 邪淫. Never never knew it was otherwise. Like that no need marry liao

Buddha is not particularly concerned with the specifics and 'official' marriage, he is only concerned about the quality of a true relationship. He never mentioned about marriage in his teachings. All these differs from culture to culture and the traditions of the people.

He however taught this:

30. "In five ways should a wife as the western direction be respected by a husband: by honoring, not disrespecting, being faithful, sharing authority, and by giving gifts.

"And, the wife so respected reciprocates with compassion in five ways: by being well-organized, being kindly disposed to the in-laws and household workers, being faithful, looking after the household goods, and being skillful and diligent in all duties.7

同居是邪淫？ replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 07 May 2008 10:25:23 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 07 May 2008 10:25:23 +0800

Originally posted by rokkie:

i think u r talking about pre marriage sex ,right.It's also a moral issue.I think if u love her,and u keep ur promise,it's ok,since now it's modern era.

If young ppl get into BGR they should avoid sex for practical reasons -- not to get pregnant, they're still studying, they may not stay together for long. They are not ready to start a family yet. Always be mindful that abortion is killing and be responsible for both your child and your karma. Use contraception whenever necessary.

So it's not that sex is inherently wrong without marriage, with or without marriage is only a social and cultural behavior. What is important is to use wisdom, and of course, be moral -- i.e. be faithful to your partner and not have extramarital affairs.

同居是邪淫？ replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 07 May 2008 10:23:26 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 07 May 2008 10:23:26 +0800

Originally posted by Fyn.loy:

I just knew it..

As long as they are faithful partners and are faithful to each other (do not have relationship or casual sex outside), then that's fine. Some people did not get married but nevertheless remain faithful to each other for life. But casual sex between friends or strangers is not fine.

Marriage is only a social and cultural norm, the Buddha never demands people married, he is only concerned whether you are faithful to your partner. Perhaps, marriage may not even exist for some cultures. So what is important is not 'marriage' but 'faithfulness'.

同居是邪淫？ replied by An Eternal Now @ Wed, 07 May 2008 10:21:00 +0800

An Eternal Now — Wed, 07 May 2008 10:21:00 +0800

Originally posted by rokkie:

according to buddhism all the sex is 邪淫,it abstain u from awaken,but in the real life,ppl could never do that .

No, not all sex is 邪淫. Sexual intercourse between a couple is not 邪淫.

同居是邪淫？ replied by Isis @ Tue, 06 May 2008 23:52:51 +0800

Isis — Tue, 06 May 2008 23:52:51 +0800