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In English:
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/passissue/9610/sources/diamond5.htm
The Buddha goes on to point out explicitly that "if a Bodhisattva has a mark of self, a mark of others, a mark of living beings, or a mark of a life, he/she is not a Bodhisattva". The four marks described here are elaborated as follows:
- A mark of self: belief in the existence of independent and permanent self
- A mark of others: belief in the existence of independent and permanent being with respect to the self
- A mark of sentient beings: belief in the existence of a species, a race, a clan or a class of beings which is different from others
- A mark of a life: belief in the existence of a permanent entity that would migrate from a rebirth to the other rebirth
Edited by An Eternal Now 22 Jun `08, 5:08PM
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A more thorough explanation of 'lifespan', a post by Longchen in the Soul topic recently:
By 'authentic experience', i meant meditate to directly experience the timeless Presence (Buddha Nature) which is your true nature.
Once, you have that direct experience, you will know, without any doubt, that the true nature is forever.
"Soul' is very subjective... All kinds of teaching will say all kind of things that are contradictory to each other. And where does soul starts and you the personality end? You get what i mean?
To me, the closest match to the word 'soul' is the subconscious mind.
But, then you only will experience the sensate reality. If you do not experience it, then it does not exist for you.
That is why 'emptiness' in Buddhism is such a profound truth. For people who doesn't realise it, they will alway think that there is something 'beyond' their existence.
For in truth, there is no something beyond what is being experienced. For example, if you meditate and experience the 'soul', then the soul only exist for you at that moment. That moment is just right for the conditions of the 'soul' to be experienced.
By that definition, 'soul' is nothing but that experience of pure 'intent' that is being experienced at that moment.
Through this way of understanding, you will know that there is no separate entity elsewhere that is call the soul. It is just another altered state of your own consciousness.
Once, this is known, the lifespan of the soul becomes a meaningless question.
Do you get what i mean?
Edited by An Eternal Now 22 Jun `08, 5:37PM
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Thusness:
Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from moment to moment,
it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed entity.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Thusness:
Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from moment to moment,
it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed entity.but all these self1.2,3 form the self in continous life span, but most of all, we only feel the current self.Memory past self, expect coming self.
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Originally posted by rokkie:
but all these self1.2,3 form the self in continous life span, but most of all, we only feel the current self.Memory past self, expect coming self.
There is no continuous life span as a fixed entity, all there is various causes and conditions giving rise to many experiences.
A previous cause and conditions produce a new experience right now. There is no fixed entity, but a continuation of a process due to the perpetuation of causes and conditions, but without any agent or experiencer.
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Originally posted by rokkie:
definitely be 寿者。all the version i have seen is 寿者。无，means not attached, besides, when you are not attached to these views, you have automatically be blessedTo practice non attachment to the 4 forms is important, but to say 'wu' means non attached is not quite it. It is a form of insight and realisation, that all along the true nature is empty (of self/other, 'inherently existing' phenomena, etc). Of course, prior to such insights and realisation, we should continue to practice non-attachment.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
There is no continuous life span as a fixed entity, all there is various causes and conditions giving rise to many experiences.
A previous cause and conditions produce a new experience right now. There is no fixed entity, but a continuation of a process due to the perpetuation of causes and conditions, but without any agent or experiencer.
but i think your theory doesn't answer why there is no fixed entity, in buddhism we know there is no fixed entity, even atman, but the problem is how to explain it.In secular life our self is also self1,self2.Sometimes people went through something he changed, but all the self form who we are,
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
To practice non attachment to the 4 forms is important, but to say 'wu' means non attached is not quite it. It is a form of insight and realisation, that all along the true nature is empty (of self/other, 'inherently existing' phenomena, etc). Of course, prior to such insights and realisation, we should continue to practice non-attachment.
i think non attachment is also counted as insight or realisation, if people fully no attached to ego, money, sex, and dharma itself he would already achieve something in life
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Originally posted by rokkie:
but i think your theory doesn't answer why there is no fixed entity, in buddhism we know there is no fixed entity, even atman, but the problem is how to explain it.In secular life our self is also self1,self2.Sometimes people went through something he changed, but all the self form who we are,
Every moment, is a new 'self' or experience being born. Nothing remains. The seeming continuity of a personality, and our bodies which changes slowly, and so gives rise to the impression that there is a perpetuation of a fixed entity.
In actuality, every moment is there only when there is causes and conditions for the appearances. The continuation of personality (i.e. habits, behavior, and so on) are due to imprints, tendencies in our 8th consciousness that keeps on manifesting.
But it does not mean that there is fixed entity, it is just means the tendencies are there. The tendencies are not inherently bad, but we have to be always aware of them in order not to be 'overpowered' by our momentum. Some imprints are good (i.e. good habits), some are bad (i.e. bad habits, like smoking, drinking, etc). They can change. They are not a 'self'. And good thing they are not our 'inherent self', otherwise we cannot change our bad habits, or build good habits.
As for our body, we all know that every 7 years our cells are completely renewed, there is no part of the body that is unchanged after 7 years. But due to our genetic and various conditionings our body may still appear to look similar. Still, they will slowly age... if you compare a baby with a old person, you'll see. Our body is also not 'self', it is an impersonal functioning that changes moment to moment.
So there is not a thing that is fixed, there is not a thing that has not arisen due to causes and conditions, they are all empty of inherent existence, empty of a self, empty of other. Dependently arisen.
Edited by An Eternal Now 22 Jun `08, 7:36PM
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Originally posted by rokkie:
i think non attachment is also counted as insight or realisation, if people fully no attached to ego, money, sex, and dharma itself he would already achieve something in lifeDe-tachment is important, an important aspect that is necessary to lead to awakening. But to awaken, just practicing detachment is not enough.
Emptiness is the nature of reality, 'wu' is our true essence of mind.
If we take Shamatha-Vipashyana (止观) for example, and almost all practices are a varying form or extention of this essential practice that leads to liberation...
止 -- Shamatha -- is to train our mind not to wander, to remain one pointedness and undistracted... to remain detached. So practicing Shamatha, we can gradually let go and relinquish our attachments to ego, money, sex and so on. But the positive momentum built up through shamatha, to go beyond symbols and thoughts and attachments, is itself not enough to awaken... but still, a necessary component.
观 -- Vipashyana -- is necessary to develope insight into the nature of reality. To practice Vipashyana we have to have certain 'base' in shamatha as well, as a wandering mind cannot really stop and observe the nature of our experience well to develope deep insights and liberation
So in Vipashyana, what we practice is we observe our moment-to-moment experience... what are they? They are impermanent, suffering and empty (void of self and other). (无常苦空) Through constant mindfulness/awareness of our experience we can gain insights into the true nature of reality, and as a result attain liberation. And what is 观? 观 = 觉观, 觉照. This is essential. 觉 is essential in Vipashyana (观), they are not two. Ultimately all insights gained is only on Awareness and the nature of Awareness (Emptiness), which is our Mind-Essence.
An important point to mention is that 无常苦空 should be fully experienced, and not just place a conclusion on phenomena arising. I will post later.
And as Thusness mentioned to me today, all practices are directed to this moment of experiencing in terms of intensity of the luminosity and emptiness nature. There is nothing else.
Edited by An Eternal Now 22 Jun `08, 7:13PM
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An old conversation:
(12:21 AM) Thusness: what is the role of insight meditation?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: why bare attention?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: why naked awareness?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: when insight meditation is taught and Buddha said when hearing just the sound...this and that...
(12:23 AM) Thusness: what Buddha wanted is to experience directly what awareness is, the arising, the ceasing, the clarity, the non-dual nature
(12:23 AM) Thusness: in DO
(12:24 AM) AEN_____: icic..
(12:24 AM) Thusness: not to note it with thought or place any conclusion on any experience.
(12:25 AM) Thusness: "this is impermanence"; is not about noting and place any conclusion about a phenomenon arising.
(12:26 AM) Thusness: but experience impermanence directly, not in words
(12:26 AM) AEN_____: icic.. yea
(12:26 AM) Thusness: be impermanence and know what is it really...
(12:26 AM) Thusness: see what clarity is, not what it should be
(12:27 AM) Thusness: it is luminous and yet empty...experience it directly...it is so.
(12:27 AM) AEN_____: icic..
(12:27 AM) Thusness: break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus.-------------------------
A chatlog that my friend sent me last year
He was chatting with Thusness.
Ck: john, how to practise vipassana in daily life?
Thusness: just observe every sensation.
Thusness: until one day u are able to experience "emptiness as form".
Thusness: then it becomes effortless.
Thusness: Truthz u cannot imagine the bliss when one clearly experiences that.
Thusness: but there is no point to over stress anything.
Thusness:
Ck: Thusness just observe every sensation... give me an eg?
Thusness: when u breath, u don't have to care what is the right way of breathing, whether u breath hard or soft, smooth or fine...just experience as much clarity as u can...just that experience...regardless of what it is like.
Thusness: same for all other experiences.
Ck: wot abt sound? hows it?
Thusness: when u hear, just the sound...the totality of the sound. There is no how but just to do away with all abitary thoughts. Hear the sound as clear as u can be.
Ck: then wot abt thots?
Ck: thots r v sticky
Thusness: thoughts seldom arise if the practice is correct. If it arises, then not to chase after its meaning. Not to answer urself what it means, not to dwell in 'what'...then u will resort to just the moment of awareness.
Ck: when i try to be just openly aware, i notice that i jump from sense to sense
Ck: like one moment hearing, then touch, etc
Thusness: that is okie.
Thusness: our nature is so.
Ck: wots the rite way to do it
Thusness: don't think that u should concentrate.
Thusness: ur only duty is to sense with as much clarity as possible.
Ck: and for all the sensations, i dun dwell in the 'what'?
Thusness: ur mind is looking for a way, a method
Thusness: but what that is needed is only the clarity.
Thusness: however because our mind is so molded and affect by our habitual propensities, it becomes difficult what that is direct and simple.
Thusness: just stop asking 'how', 'what', 'why'.
Thusness: and submerge into the moment.
Thusness: and experience.
Thusness: i perfer u to describe.
Thusness: not to ask how, what, why, when, where and who.
Thusness: only this is necessary.
Ck: ok
Thusness: if u practice immediately, u will understand.
Thusness: if u entertain who, what, where, when and how, u create more propensities and dull ur own luminosity.
Ck: i shuffle btw self inquiry, observing sensations n thots, being aware... its ok rite
Thusness: yes
Ck: means start work i'll hv even more propensities...
Thusness: that is when u do not understand what awareness, but it is true to certain extend.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Every moment, is a new 'self' or experience being born. Nothing remains. The seeming continuity of a personality, and our bodies which changes slowly, and so gives rise to the impression that there is a perpetuation of a fixed entity.
In actuality, every moment is there only when there is causes and conditions for the appearances. The continuation of personality (i.e. habits, behavior, and so on) are due to imprints, tendencies in our 8th consciousness that keeps on manifesting.
But it does not mean that there is fixed entity, it is just means the tendencies are there. The tendencies are not inherently bad, but we have to be always aware of them in order not to be 'overpowered' by our momentum. Some imprints are good (i.e. good habits), some are bad (i.e. bad habits, like smoking, drinking, etc). They can change. They are not a 'self'. And good thing they are not our 'inherent self', otherwise we cannot change our bad habits, or build good habits.
As for our body, we all know that every 7 years our cells are completely renewed, there is no part of the body that is unchanged after 7 years. But due to our genetic and various conditionings our body may still appear to look similar. Still, they will slowly age... if you compare a baby with a old person, you'll see. Our body is also not 'self', it is an impersonal functioning that changes moment to moment.
So there is not a thing that is not fixed, there is not a thing that has not arisen due to causes and conditions, they are all empty of inherent existence, empty of a self, empty of other. Dependently arisen.
cell renew every 7 years, does not means we are complete new or different, it's still who we are, i think we cannot change the inherent self.And probably it's good for us to follow and stick to the inherent self. We are happier to stay who we are.Yes there is nothing fixed, but within the life span of ourself, we are consistent, we have die anyway, finally become some ash. But according to someone we have walked in the world, and left something, maybe some magnetic wave.
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Originally posted by rokkie:
cell renew every 7 years, does not means we are complete new or different, it's still who we are, i think we cannot change the inherent self.And probably it's good for us to follow and stick to the inherent self. We are happier to stay who we are.Yes there is nothing fixed, but within the life span of ourself, we are consistent, we have die anyway, finally become some ash. But according to someone we have walked in the world, and left something, maybe some magnetic wave.
If cells are in the state of everchangingness, there is nothing fixed and no 'self' can be found in the body.
Our body is only an appearance due to causes and conditions, ultimately empty, and no 'self' can be found.
The consistencies is simply due to the perpetuation of causes and conditions, the conditions are there to manifest, they are simply tendencies and NOT actuality, and hence there is no inherent existence or a fixed entity.
I can assure you that if a person die now and reborn, and start to learn everything again from a different cultural condition, his behavior and personality will be very different from this life.
OR if a person get hit by a car, suffer amnesia and forget everything... and relearn everything. His personality may be quite different from before.
Hence the various conditionings that forms his personality and behavior can change any moment and are not 'self'.
Of course past life 'seeds' can still affect, but the conditionings from his present lifetime's family, friends, and social circle plays a larger role. Past life he can't remember already. In any case, it is just conditionings, but empty.
There is no inherent self to be found in the body, or the mind, or the personality, or even beyond. It simply cannot be found. Of course, go practice yourself and observe... become enlightened then you'll see with absolute clarity.
Edited by An Eternal Now 22 Jun `08, 7:47PM
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Originally posted by bohiruci:
beside shou zhe is wrong , shouldnt you post on your view ?thanks
壽 is longevity. When we cling on to this life and wish for it to be extended infinitely, we become attached. So it is with this desire for longevity that we remain in samsara life after life.
如能破我相﹐其它三相皆破. Because without the self, you'll understand the emptiness of other forms as well.
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Originally posted by rokkie:
cell renew every 7 years, does not means we are complete new or different, it's still who we are, i think we cannot change the inherent self.And probably it's good for us to follow and stick to the inherent self. We are happier to stay who we are.Yes there is nothing fixed, but within the life span of ourself, we are consistent, we have die anyway, finally become some ash. But according to someone we have walked in the world, and left something, maybe some magnetic wave.
I look at it this way. When I looked at my photos I took years ago, that person in the photo seemed so distant. He may look like me, but do I experience what he was experiencing at that time? I may know he look happy, but in my current state, I no longer can feel that happiness. Therefore, I am not the same person as in the past.
When we die, is the person who is reborn the same person who lived previously? The answer is again no. If it's the same, we would remember our previous lives, and we would retain our traits, but we did not. Therefore we are not the same people as in the past.
So where is the self if it's ever changing?
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Originally posted by Rick555:
I look at it this way. When I looked at my photos I took years ago, that person in the photo seemed so distant. He may look like me, but do I experience what he was experiencing at that time? I may know he look happy, but in my current state, I no longer can feel that happiness. Therefore, I am not the same person as in the past.
When we die, is the person who is reborn the same person who lived previously? The answer is again no. If it's the same, we would remember our previous lives, and we would retain our traits, but we did not. Therefore we are not the same people as in the past.
So where is the self if it's ever changing?
unfortunately, our life is like one way journey, no way back, we cannot do anything help what we regret, about the reborn, i personally don't have any experience relate with that,help convince that it happen indeed. In fact what's transcendental didn't happen on me, what's dharma teaching for me is so real, and i personally don't experience such thing mystic in buddhism.
And you look at the photo, you no longer feel the happiness you felt, but it didn't vanish, it become your memory in your brain.And if you reborn you become something or someone totally different,you already cannot say that you reborn, because it's so different unrelated to you.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
An old conversation:
(12:21 AM) Thusness: what is the role of insight meditation?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: why bare attention?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: why naked awareness?
(12:22 AM) Thusness: when insight meditation is taught and Buddha said when hearing just the sound...this and that...
(12:23 AM) Thusness: what Buddha wanted is to experience directly what awareness is, the arising, the ceasing, the clarity, the non-dual nature
(12:23 AM) Thusness: in DO
(12:24 AM) AEN_____: icic..
(12:24 AM) Thusness: not to note it with thought or place any conclusion on any experience.
(12:25 AM) Thusness: "this is impermanence"; is not about noting and place any conclusion about a phenomenon arising.
(12:26 AM) Thusness: but experience impermanence directly, not in words
(12:26 AM) AEN_____: icic.. yea
(12:26 AM) Thusness: be impermanence and know what is it really...
(12:26 AM) Thusness: see what clarity is, not what it should be
(12:27 AM) Thusness: it is luminous and yet empty...experience it directly...it is so.
(12:27 AM) AEN_____: icic..
(12:27 AM) Thusness: break the solidity until there is no holding simply thus.-------------------------
A chatlog that my friend sent me last year
He
was chatting with Thusness.
Ck: john, how to practise vipassana in daily life?
Thusness: just observe every sensation.
Thusness: until one day u are able to experience "emptiness as form".
Thusness: then it becomes effortless.
Thusness: Truthz u cannot imagine the bliss when one clearly experiences that.
Thusness: but there is no point to over stress anything.
Thusness:
Ck: Thusness just observe every sensation... give me an eg?
Thusness: when u breath, u don't have to care what is the right way of breathing, whether u breath hard or soft, smooth or fine...just experience as much clarity as u can...just that experience...regardless of what it is like.
Thusness: same for all other experiences.
Ck: wot abt sound? hows it?
Thusness: when u hear, just the sound...the totality of the sound. There is no how but just to do away with all abitary thoughts. Hear the sound as clear as u can be.
Ck: then wot abt thots?
Ck: thots r v sticky
Thusness: thoughts seldom arise if the practice is correct. If it arises, then not to chase after its meaning. Not to answer urself what it means, not to dwell in 'what'...then u will resort to just the moment of awareness.
Ck: when i try to be just openly aware, i notice that i jump from sense to sense
Ck: like one moment hearing, then touch, etc
Thusness: that is okie.
Thusness: our nature is so.
Ck: wots the rite way to do it
Thusness: don't think that u should concentrate.
Thusness: ur only duty is to sense with as much clarity as possible.
Ck: and for all the sensations, i dun dwell in the 'what'?
Thusness: ur mind is looking for a way, a method
Thusness: but what that is needed is only the clarity.
Thusness: however because our mind is so molded and affect by our habitual propensities, it becomes difficult what that is direct and simple.
Thusness: just stop asking 'how', 'what', 'why'.
Thusness: and submerge into the moment.
Thusness: and experience.
Thusness: i perfer u to describe.
Thusness: not to ask how, what, why, when, where and who.
Thusness: only this is necessary.
Ck: ok
Thusness: if u practice immediately, u will understand.
Thusness: if u entertain who, what, where, when and how, u create more propensities and dull ur own luminosity.
Ck: i shuffle btw self inquiry, observing sensations n thots, being aware... its ok rite
Thusness: yes
Ck: means start work i'll hv even more propensities...
Thusness: that is when u do not understand what awareness, but it is true to certain extend.I'm curious. Who is Thusness? I only know he's a moderator of this forum but how come he's not around to post? Pardon me as I did not join for long.
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A friend I met in the Buddhist IRC channel I think 4~5 years back, was introduced by another friend who I also met from the internet (Truthz, the guy who was asking Thusness on Vipassana). Met both a few times.
Can say we're friends... but because I have learnt so much from Thusness, he's also like a teacher to me :)
He seldom post here cos he's a very very busy man (he's CEO, directors and investors of many companies, part-time lecturer, etc...)... but I was just chatting with him a few minutes ago, asking him on programming things... on MSN.
p.s. he's retiring soon.. he's only 40 but he definitely earned more than enough, LOL
Edited by An Eternal Now 22 Jun `08, 10:41PM
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Originally posted by rokkie:
good CEO ,director, investor, such position will be making his lecture more convincing, and, i haven't not really met any succesful man, who is a buddhist, look at myself, what a shame, I think he should lecture more on why he is successful.
IMO,
Lots of time, how successful and the conditions of a person's life is dependent on past merits and karma.
Of course, personal attributes play a part too.
Sometimes, the conditions of the rebirth can be 'planned' too... not for all people though.
Edited by longchen 22 Jun `08, 10:57PM
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