why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by SingaporeTyrannosaur @ Thu, 12 Jul 2007 02:53:27 +0800

SingaporeTyrannosaur — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 02:53:27 +0800

"Ye can know nothing of the end of all things, or nothing expressible in those terms. It may be, as the Lord said to the Lady Julian, that all will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well. But it's ill talking of such questions."

"Because they are too terrible, Sir?"

"No. Because all answers deceive. If ye put the question from within Time and are asking about possibilities, the answer is certain. The choice of ways is before you. Neither is closed. Any man may choose eternal death. Those who choose it will have it. But if ye are trying to leap on into Eternity, if ye are trying to see the final state of all things as it will be (for so ye must speak) when there are no more possibilities left but only the Real, then ye ask what cannot be answered to mortal ears. Time is the very lens through which ye see — small and clear, as men see through the wrong end of a telescope — something that would otherwise be too big for ye to see at all. That thing is Freedom: the gift whereby ye most resemble your Maker and are yourselves parts of eternal reality. But ye can see it only through the lens of Time, in a little clear picture, through the inverted telescope. It is a picture of moments following one another and yourself in each moment making some choice that might have been otherwise. Neither the temporal succession nor the phantom of what ye might have chosen and didn't is itself Freedom. They are a lens. The picture is a symbol: but it's truer than any philosophical theorem (or, perhaps, than any mystic's vision) that claims to go behind it. For every attempt to see the shape of eternity except through the lens of Time destroys your knowledge of Freedom."

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by SingaporeTyrannosaur @ Thu, 12 Jul 2007 02:51:32 +0800

SingaporeTyrannosaur — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 02:51:32 +0800

"Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy, like art... It has no survival value; rather it is one of those things that give value to survival.

It is hard to have patience with people who say 'There is no death' or 'Death doesn't matter.' There is death. And whatever is matters. And whatever happens has consequences, and it and they are irrevocable and irreversible. You might as well say that birth doesn`t matter."

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by january @ Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:54:02 +0800

january — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:54:02 +0800

Originally posted by HolySniper:

but if u dun believe there's god but believe there's ghost, wat are u?

i dun believe in ghost

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by HolySniper @ Tue, 10 Jul 2007 08:11:47 +0800

HolySniper — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 08:11:47 +0800

but if u dun believe there's god but believe there's ghost, wat are u?

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by january @ Mon, 09 Jul 2007 19:29:04 +0800

january — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 19:29:04 +0800

ghost stories by people who sweared by god that they really seen it and touched it is has always be the same and it does not lead to any more knowledge beyond their encounter at that time.

New stories will has the same format.

These evidences thus become proof of ghost existence.
Some of the claims will also say that after they visited a priest or bought a protective stuff, the ghost no longer harass them.

The ghost industry is definitely present in modern time (i cannot believe it) and there are still people using the industry, like hungry ghost festival.

Or dead kins visiting them in the dreams. Or dead kins fly back as butterflies.
So far this is the pattern of ghost culture in world. For scientist and atheist, these evidences are considered weak. We need to have more evidences and scientific testing and more knowledge to really say that ghost indeed is present.

the ghost culture is going in circles with no new development and no new knowledge.

evidences of ghost ---> ghost industry ---> people talking ghost stories ---> new ghost evidences ---> more weapons against ghost , more goodies for ghost relatives --> continue the same cycle

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by Herzog_Zwei @ Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:49:22 +0800

Herzog_Zwei — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:49:22 +0800

Originally posted by january:

nah i dun believe in ghost.

wah ur claim of excess enegry of dead humans are extraordinary.

the world of ghost stories has roughly been the same throughout centuries. there is no real progress and understanding towards it.

ghost is not real, but the industry that selling evil ghost stuff and blessing stuff are real though.

How true...

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by january @ Sat, 07 Jul 2007 20:52:26 +0800

january — Sat, 07 Jul 2007 20:52:26 +0800

Originally posted by gigabyte14:

what i think is

god is just a little being thought up by humans to act as a gear to keep them going

i don't believe in them though, but as for ghosts, i believe

the supernatural beings of energy generated from the excess energy of dead humans, is real.

nah i dun believe in ghost.

wah ur claim of excess enegry of dead humans are extraordinary.

the world of ghost stories has roughly been the same throughout centuries. there is no real progress and understanding towards it.

ghost is not real, but the industry that selling evil ghost stuff and blessing stuff are real though.

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by gigabyte14 @ Sat, 07 Jul 2007 14:45:34 +0800

gigabyte14 — Sat, 07 Jul 2007 14:45:34 +0800

what i think is

god is just a little being thought up by humans to act as a gear to keep them going

i don't believe in them though, but as for ghosts, i believe

the supernatural beings of energy generated from the excess energy of dead humans, is real.

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by kenkaw @ Sat, 07 Jul 2007 14:33:41 +0800

kenkaw — Sat, 07 Jul 2007 14:33:41 +0800

Originally posted by sgquitter:

... its interesting how believers don't post or read about what non-believers say.

There will always be rebuttals to arguments and further arguments to rebuttals. No argument is foolproof, pro-atheism ones included. The same applies to Pascal's wager; but despite its flaws, it is an interesting thought which atheists would do well to think about.

Originally posted by january:
to counter it lets instead use my january wager.

"do you think if god exist, he would let human so easily go to heaven by just believeing in him. believing is easy and convinent to the uncritical mind. Choosing not to believe in god because there is no good reasons and evidence and staying not to believe reflects courage.
If god exist, he would certainly choose those that do not believe in god due to lack of evidence to be with him because god needs courage and wise people to be with him.
Do you think choosing to believe in god means that you have a 99 percent chance of going to heaven.
bewteen believing and not believing. the chance is actually 50 percent of each of going to heaven [b]if god exist .

Wow, for someone who does not believe in God, you certainly seem to know a lot about how God thinks and acts, the type of people he likes and the virtues needed to go to heaven.

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by Omniknight @ Sat, 07 Jul 2007 00:00:24 +0800

Omniknight — Sat, 07 Jul 2007 00:00:24 +0800

My God is also no-God

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by january @ Fri, 06 Jul 2007 23:54:56 +0800

january — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 23:54:56 +0800

deleted

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by SturmDerSchatten @ Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:44:18 +0800

SturmDerSchatten — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:44:18 +0800

Originally posted by sgquitter:

the three most influential monotheistic religions exist today because alot of violence and atrocities were commited in the past - not only politics. They have alot of blood in their hands. it is ironic becoz many ideas in their scriptures were in fact taken directly or copied in some form or another, from what you guys called 'pagan' gods. i'd stop here since it can be very sensitive to some people.

You specify "in fact taken directly or copied in some form or another". Evidence? Of course, killing others to convert them to your side is atrocious. But then again, the Bible has been misinterpreted by human minds over and over the centuries, and perhaps so, has led to much blood being spilled in the name of religion.

If u insist that becoz of the violence and atrocities commited by the powerful in the past resulting in the situation we have today is a sign of God's will or a prove of his greatness, then i have to say it is indeed a fact that the 3 great monotheistic religions form the majority in the world today. However, the methods that its followers used to get into this position isn't all that glorifying. Also, most importantly, just because a certain group which agrees to a certain idea is more powerful or is the majority does not prove anything. In the past, the majority of people used to think that the planet Earth is flat, do you think likewise now?

Like I said just now, it is atrocious and regrettable.

But lets not forget we have Dharmic religions and others still existing in the world today. Luckily they were not wiped out. Does their existence today prove anything to you? Or have we forgotten the "other" religions altogether?

Of course, I know they exist. i was just raising the three monothestic religions as an example. One reason why they've not been converted: The regions which used Buddhism as the state religion were relatively free from the reaches of the three monothestic religions. Even if there were missionaries, most of them were persecuted and exiled.

As for Greek Myths, it was smart of them to chose the word "myth" to escape being destroyed, becoz i must say i really enjoy reading greek myths today.

Greek "myths" died along with the Greek Empire when the Romans took over. They just romanized it to a great extent to fit their own purposes.

Regarding my comment about Pascal having a very limited mindset, i do not see how my choice of words is wrong (if you are contesting that)? We have to consider why Pascal came out with the "wager", and his lack of consideration that other religions can claim the same.

Not contesting your choice of words, it's just an interesting observation I've made regarding the way atheists argue.

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by sgquitter @ Thu, 05 Jul 2007 16:35:26 +0800

sgquitter — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 16:35:26 +0800

Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:

Taking on a religion just to be on the "safe side" is not a good reason at all. I quote something from Pirates of the Carribean: "If a decision is made for the wrong reasons, then it is a bad decision."

Of course, that argument is valid. Take a moment, however, to think about how the three most influential monotheistic religions of Christianity, Islam and Jewism still exist till today, whereas the gods of what we call "mythology" have faded into antiquity.

Now, you may argue that it's because of politics and state policies that keep those three in place, but let's consider for a moment religion untainted by politics and social manipulation. For them to still exist, there has to be some other reason that keeps them alive and so powerful even till today, right?

And another thing, I notice plenty of atheists (note: I didn't say ALL) like to use words like "limited vision", "uneducated", "guesswork" and "stunted logic". Now, really, it's not up to anyone to pigeon-hole anyone else with derogative terms like this.

the three most influential monotheistic religions exist today because alot of violence and atrocities were commited in the past - not only politics. They have alot of blood in their hands. it is ironic becoz many ideas in their scriptures were in fact taken directly or copied in some form or another, from what you guys called 'pagan' gods. i'd stop here since it can be very sensitive to some people.

If u insist that becoz of the violence and atrocities commited by the powerful in the past resulting in the situation we have today is a sign of God's will or a prove of his greatness, then i have to say it is indeed a fact that the 3 great monotheistic religions form the majority in the world today. However, the methods that its followers used to get into this position isn't all that glorifying. Also, most importantly, just because a certain group which agrees to a certain idea is more powerful or is the majority does not prove anything. In the past, the majority of people used to think that the planet Earth is flat, do you think likewise now?

But lets not forget we have Dharmic religions and others still existing in the world today. Luckily they were not wiped out. Does their existence today prove anything to you? Or have we forgotten the "other" religions altogether?

As for Greek Myths, it was smart of them to chose the word "myth" to escape being destroyed, becoz i must say i really enjoy reading greek myths today.

Regarding my comment about Pascal having a very limited mindset, i do not see how my choice of words is wrong (if you are contesting that)? We have to consider why Pascal came out with the "wager", and his lack of consideration that other religions can claim the same.

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by Herzog_Zwei @ Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:06:03 +0800

Herzog_Zwei — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:06:03 +0800

Originally posted by january:

the pascal wager is a common tactic that makes people think its safer to choose to believe in god.

to counter it lets instead use my january wager.

"do you think if god exist, he would let human so easily go to heaven by just believeing in him. believing is easy and convinent to the uncritical mind. Choosing not to believe in god because there is no good reasons and evidence and staying not to believe reflects courage.

If god exist, he would certainly choose those that do not believe in god due to lack of evidence to be with him because god needs courage and wise people to be with him.

Do you think choosing to believe in god means that you have a 99 percent chance of going to heaven.

bewteen believing and not believing. the chance is actually 50 percent of each of going to heaven [b]if god exist .

[/b]

Nice answer.

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by january @ Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:58:32 +0800

january — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:58:32 +0800

i was slightly trick by the pascal wager and luckily i was relatively atheistic when i read his argument few years ago.

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by january @ Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:54:48 +0800

january — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:54:48 +0800

This reminds me of Pascal's Wager which is a simple but rather interesting argument from a Christian persepctive. Not sure if it has been posted before but it goes something like this.

Pascal's Wager

Either there is a God or there is no God. So we have two options, to believe in God or not to believe, what will our wager be ? For self preservation, the only logical course of action is to bet that God exists because you have nothing to lose; Atheism is a bad bet.

the pascal wager is a common tactic that makes people think its safer to choose to believe in god.

to counter it lets instead use my january wager.

"do you think if god exist, he would let human so easily go to heaven by just believeing in him. believing is easy and convinent to the uncritical mind. Choosing not to believe in god because there is no good reasons and evidence and staying not to believe reflects courage.

If god exist, he would certainly choose those that do not believe in god due to lack of evidence to be with him because god needs courage and wise people to be with him.

Do you think choosing to believe in god means that you have a 99 percent chance of going to heaven.

bewteen believing and not believing. the chance is actually 50 percent of each of going to heaven if god exist .

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by SturmDerSchatten @ Wed, 04 Jul 2007 20:29:58 +0800

SturmDerSchatten — Wed, 04 Jul 2007 20:29:58 +0800

Originally posted by sgquitter:

actually when i was younger, my friend proposed the same idea as pascal's wager, of coz we didn't have access to internet that time, and is purely coincidental and natural that such a question will arise. He commented it is "better" to put faith in Christianity because there is only one chance of life, whereas Buddhism (even if it turns out to be true) you get countless chances of life becoz of rebirth. So Christianity is a "safer bet".

it didnt take me more than a minute to counter-propose the possibility of other gods/religions as the "true religion".

"Why not consider Hinduism? Or Zeus? etc etc"...
"Weighing Pros and Cons does not constitute or prove a religion to be true"...

These are the 2 answers i gave him.
(of coz the article above provided more rebuttals)

Is it because people who are very immersed in their own religion fail to see there are countless others? Pascal must've been a very very staunch Christian so much that he is obscured by his own limited vision.

Taking on a religion just to be on the "safe side" is not a good reason at all. I quote something from Pirates of the Carribean: "If a decision is made for the wrong reasons, then it is a bad decision."

Of course, that argument is valid. Take a moment, however, to think about how the three most influential monotheistic religions of Christianity, Islam and Jewism still exist till today, whereas the gods of what we call "mythology" have faded into antiquity.

Now, you may argue that it's because of politics and state policies that keep those three in place, but let's consider for a moment religion untainted by politics and social manipulation. For them to still exist, there has to be some other reason that keeps them alive and so powerful even till today, right?

And another thing, I notice plenty of atheists (note: I didn't say ALL) like to use words like "limited vision", "uneducated", "guesswork" and "stunted logic". Now, really, it's not up to anyone to pigeon-hole anyone else with derogative terms like this.

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by sgquitter @ Wed, 04 Jul 2007 19:52:49 +0800

sgquitter — Wed, 04 Jul 2007 19:52:49 +0800

Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:

Hey, I resent that! Nah, it's probably because they're not so confident to argue their point.

actually when i was younger, my friend proposed the same idea as pascal's wager, of coz we didn't have access to internet that time, and is purely coincidental and natural that such a question will arise. He commented it is "better" to put faith in Christianity because there is only one chance of life, whereas Buddhism (even if it turns out to be true) you get countless chances of life becoz of rebirth. So Christianity is a "safer bet".

it didnt take me more than a minute to counter-propose the possibility of other gods/religions as the "true religion".

"Why not consider Hinduism? Or Zeus? etc etc"...
"Weighing Pros and Cons does not constitute or prove a religion to be true"...

These are the 2 answers i gave him.
(of coz the article above provided more rebuttals)

Is it because people who are very immersed in their own religion fail to see there are countless others? Pascal must've been a very very staunch Christian so much that he is obscured by his own limited vision.

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by SturmDerSchatten @ Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:08:13 +0800

SturmDerSchatten — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:08:13 +0800

Originally posted by sgquitter:

check out this wiki article, esp the rebuttal part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

its interesting how believers don't post or read about what non-believers say.

Hey, I resent that! Nah, it's probably because they're not so confident to argue their point.

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by sgquitter @ Tue, 03 Jul 2007 02:53:59 +0800

sgquitter — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 02:53:59 +0800

check out this wiki article, esp the rebuttal part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

its interesting how believers don't post or read about what non-believers say.

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by kenkaw @ Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:59:32 +0800

kenkaw — Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:59:32 +0800

Originally posted by january:
Atheist population in singapore? i dunno.. there never really have a statistics in singapore about the beliefs of GOD....

The Singapore Dept of Statistics 2000 population census gives the following breakdown of the resident population (Singaporeans/PRs) aged 15 and above by religion:

TOTAL 2,494,630
Buddhism 1,060,662
Taoism 212,344
Islam 371,660
Hinduism 99,904
Sikhism 9,733
Christianity (Catholicism) 118,980
Christianity (All Others) 245,107
Other religions 6,146
No religion 370,094

Note that the stats may not be fully representative of their beliefs of God but it's better than nothing.

Originally posted by january:
sometimes i dun understand.

the evidence is quite clear and abundant there is no GOD or no benevolant GOD to make sure everyone is safe and happy.

It is only natural that you do not understand why most people still believe in God. That is because your assumption and belief is that there is no God. If that was really the case, of course it would be amusing and sad to see so many 'deluded' people praying fervantly to something that does not exist.

But what if there was truly a God ? Then believing and worshipping God makes absolute sense and it would be sad to see people living in denial of God's existence (might not even be their fault, might have been because of bad experiences or bad role models). I have yet to read anything so far in this forum that proves conclusively that there is no God and I don't think I ever will (that's the nature of these things, we will only know for sure when we die; but that will be a little too late for us to post the answer in sgForums).

This reminds me of Pascal's Wager which is a simple but rather interesting argument from a Christian persepctive. Not sure if it has been posted before but it goes something like this.

Pascal's Wager

Either there is a God or there is no God. So we have two options, to believe in God or not to believe, what will our wager be ? For self preservation, the only logical course of action is to bet that God exists because you have nothing to lose; Atheism is a bad bet.

Why ? Because if God does not exist, it wouldn't matter how we bet - whether we believe or not; there is no existence after death anyway. BUT if there is indeed a God, we risk losing eternal happiness by refusing to believe. (Remember that Pascal was coming from a Christian perspective of God and life/death)

And we cannot put this decision off forever as all of us will die one day.

But is it worth the price to bet that God exists ? Well, it is reasonable to place a finite bet (giving up some autonomy, illicit pleasures etc while we are on this planet) on the chance of winning an infinite prize - happiness in eternity.

But what if you find it impossible to believe in the 'nonsense' of God ? Pascal suggested that the prospective convert "act into" his belief if he cannot yet "act out" of it. In other words, live good lives and be open to God; living the faith can be a way of eventually getting the faith.

I am certainly not suggesting that we should believe in God only as a 'bet'. It is neither a mature nor an adequate faith, but for those in the deepest pits of unbelief, it offers a first step out of that pit and we can only pray that they will eventually respond positively to God's love.

(Some material reproduced from www.catholiceducation.org)

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by Phaze @ Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:35:49 +0800

Phaze — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:35:49 +0800

Originally posted by the Bear:

here's a counter argument..

why do people still do not believe in God?

seriously... do think about this...

it's not a flame but a serious question...

Because there is no evidence for God (depending on how you define God of course).

I should say "there is no evidence for the God of Christianity, the God of Islam and the God of Judaism"

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by Phaze @ Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:32:45 +0800

Phaze — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:32:45 +0800

Originally posted by january:

from AP press:

In a rare public discussion of her husband's infidelity, Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton said Monday that she probably could not have gotten through her marital troubles without relying on her faith in God.

It's just a political thing. An overwhelming number of Americans identify themselves as Christian. So almost every political candidate will speak of faith.

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by january @ Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:26:13 +0800

january — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:26:13 +0800

this is what science and technology contributes to life and reality.. there are many examples if u read newspaper and think about how science and tech saves life and brings new invention

from the new paper:

They were born joined at the stomach and they shared a liver.

The twins' 25-year-old mother, labourer Premwati Kohl, who earns less than 30 rupees (about $1.15) a day, gave birth naturally at home, but without medical help.

But in spite of the primitive circumstances of their birth, help was at hand. Thanks to modern-day means - the internet.

On Tuesday, the now 10-month-old boys, Ram and Laxman, were successfully separated by Indian surgeons at a government-run hospital in Raipur, the capital of Chhattisgarh, one of India's poorest states.

The doctors apparently researched the operation on the Internet and borrowed equipment to do the job.

Indian Express reported that the operation, which lasted almost seven hours, was a first of its kind in Chhattisgarh.

why do u most pple still believe in GOD? replied by soulwinner @ Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:00:37 +0800

soulwinner — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:00:37 +0800