City harvest invitation!!
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Err...I hope you are joking?Originally posted by Nelstar:Religion = waste of time.
Worship is for the weak. I am strong, people worship me.
Pray to me. Fear! I am your greatest enemy.
Satan fears me. Your god fears me.
I dare to spread blasphemies about your God, but he does nothing. He can do nothing but fear my blasphemies from spreading!
If you want this to stop, please dont start introducing church in a public forum.
I'll make sure Hell visit your GOD and slap him like a meek kitten. I'll deal him a big blow that would suffice his torturing of his own creation.
Which father have children but to torture them when their children don't listen to them? Your god burns his own creations.
You sympathize with GOD? He's weak! He can't even make Satan agree with him! -
haha.. cool =DOriginally posted by Nelstar:Religion = waste of time.
Worship is for the weak. I am strong, people worship me.
Pray to me. Fear! I am your greatest enemy.
Satan fears me. Your god fears me.
I dare to spread blasphemies about your God, but he does nothing. He can do nothing but fear my blasphemies from spreading!
If you want this to stop, please dont start introducing church in a public forum.
I'll make sure Hell visit your GOD and slap him like a meek kitten. I'll deal him a big blow that would suffice his torturing of his own creation.
Which father have children but to torture them when their children don't listen to them? Your god burns his own creations.
You sympathize with GOD? He's weak! He can't even make Satan agree with him! -
i'm worried .. the monotheistic religions may just issue a joint fatwa against Nelstar.
No fun .. muslim, jewish and xtian terrorists all targeting her.
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FI never do work?Originally posted by Nelstar:i waiting for someone to retaliate or another someone to close this thread. -
1) "To Mc@ square: I agree that the usher may sound a bit unfriendly, but you also have to know that being an useher is not easy too. I get offended by them also but we must forgive and forget. "
Response: I agree that being an usher may not be easy (depending on the circumstances), but I don't believe that the difficulty of the job should be used as an excuse to justify rude behaviour. It is of course incumbent on ourselves to forgive those who are guilty of rude behaviour; but forgiving such behaviour does not in any way mean excusing it, much less condoning it. I also do not think that it is a necessary part of one's commitment to forgive another person (or even oneself) that one should be resolved strictly to forget the sins that might have been committed by this person (or by oneself). I think that there is something to be said for not forgetting one's own sins, as a means to the end of ensuring that one should always be vigilant in exercising restraint upon one's own disordered impulses; and by the same token, I think that there is also something to be said for not strictly forgetting the sins of another person (even while you have decided no longer to hold them against him) so that you could be in a position the better to warn him away from occasions of sin that are likely (in view of his past) to induce him to relapse into certain habitual patterns of sinful behaviour.
2) To keeth: I DID NOT SAID YOU CANNOT REJECT INVITAION, but please have some kind of courtesy by not throwing the postcards away. It takes for time and effort for them to give and write it to you. If you don't want , just tell them. I am sure they will gradly not give it to you and instead they will give it to some one else. It's just a present, when someone give it to you, do you throw away.
Response:
If Keeth had the opportunity of refusing the gift of the postcard before it was given to him, then it is true that he may have been morally obliged not to accept it.
However, an invitation to the services of a church should never be presented to someone in the form of a present, so that his refusal of this invitation would be tantamount to his refusal of a present which it should have been wholly yours to give.
This is a deceptive tactic, for the person being invited to church, will be made to feel obliged to regard this invitation, just as if it should have been a present which it would have been within someone's power to give to him; and if the person inviting him is a friend of his, or if she makes out to him that she has personally taken a great deal of trouble and expended considerable energy and costs in preparing whatever document or object in which her intention to invite him to her church, shall have been embodied, then a situation may arise in which this person would be made to feel that he ought to accept this invitation, by way of accepting a gift that a friend of his should have troubled herself to give to him.
In any case, if the aforesaid postcard wasn't specially prepared for Keeth then it is again deceptive to claim that it was intended to be strictly a present for Keeth, so that if he wasn't going to accept it, the purpose for which it should have been prepared would be frustated; for you have already admitted that this postcard would have been given to someone else if Keeth had not accepted it.
This being the case, why even bother calling it a present then, when it is obviously intended to serve the function of a promotional gimmick?
Do you know see how the unbelievers have come to despise you for your blatant and shameless use of such stratagies of deception?
Why do you have to conceal from them what you take (or ought to take) as the real reason why they should be attending the services of any church?
Why not divulge to them this reason as a part of your attempt to convince them of the need to attend the services of your church?
3) To Mr Bach: ONCE AGAIN, i don't I have said how many times that I did not said you cannot invitation. You see, I don't how many times must I emphase it. 4th point: We do not force them to give, how many times must I say that also? Sorry, no offense.
Response:
You are so uncomprehending, that I truly wonder whether you may not have been brainwashed.
I already conceded that you do not employ force to compel anyone to attend the services of your church, or to begin to pay tithes once they become the members of your church.
However, you do employ deceptive strategies (as demonstrated above) to induce others to attend the services of your church, and it is your position that anyone who is a member of your church would be MORALLY OBLIGED to pay a portion of his monthly income (on a monthly basis) into the coffers of your church.
4)To Ogbunwezeh: We are still young, they are a lot of things they still don't understand.
Response:
If they and you are 'still young', then why are you accorded roles that would be more suitably accorded to more mature persons?
Do you think your youthful exuberance (which is as much a product of biological factors as are the mood-swings of some people) is an index of your maturity or level of competence in functioning properly in the aforementioned roles?
5) To laurence82: We don't lose anything, it is your life not my life. We don need your pathetic money. You can keep those money instead. Church is a house of God not market place. If you want to talk about the maketplace, please go to marketplace and talk.
Response:
If Laurence's money is pathetic because he doesn't happen to be able willingly to donate it to your church (and because, as you said, your church doesn't 'need it'), then it still wouldn't follow from this that whatever points he may have raised about the strategies that your church regularly deploys to increase its funds, are invalid.
In a word, Laurence' wasn't discussing the 'marketplace' per se; he was discussing (as I understand the matter and I admit that I may be wrong on this score) the uncanny resemblance that the aforesaid strategies bear to promotional devices that are routinely used by the advertisers of commerical products.
6) 'To Yunhaier: That is why we do not encourage chrictian and non-christian together. They will have a lof of conflict. It's not totally her fault. This is a religion, you don't convert because his girlfriend ask him to. Is a personal decision.'
Response:
Please practice what you preach.
If it's wrong for him to convert to Christianity for the sake of maintaining his relationship with his girlfriend, then how can it similarly not be wrong for you to invite others to the services of your church, by the device of presenting these others with cards which you then say that you have specially prepared for them and are intending to give to them as presents, when it is clear that by doing this, such persons may be led to accept your invitation for the sake of cultivating or of maintaing their friendship with you?
Repent of your own sickening deceptiveness.
7) '...some say that we want 10% of their money, is a compulsory thing. If I don't say that will you know??? "
Response:
No if you didn't say we probably would never know; but isn't this precisely the point, namely, that you make it a point of doing your best to conceal (especially at the point of inviting someone to your church) your position that it would be morally obligatory for the members of your church, to 'tithe to God' by way of making periodic donations to your church's coffers?
"That is why I say a lot of things that WE DO, you will not understand. What I mean is that, we will grow as never before and some of the people will be shocked by the things we do."
Response:
I was shocked by the dress that your pastor's wife wore to a public gathering, as the various relevant photographs appearing in the media, have each already attested.
9) "To:laurence82 Hey, what are you trying to say. You want Christian and Catholics to have conflict?? "
Response:
Wake up, Catholics are Christians; hundreds of years before the Reformation in 1517 the only Christians in Europe were Roman Catholics.
City Harvest Church never existed then.
Christ did not found it; and earlier generations of Christians would have regarded it as an apostate church and a false and heretical church.
10) "How do you feel. As for other-christian , you may not like it, just accept it. What is the point of helping the non-believer to cast stones on CHC. It makes not different between you and them."
Response:
I don't utterly reject any organisation that brings the Name of Christ (who is my Lord) into disrepute.
I don't accept the teachings of such an organisation, insofar as they conflict with what I believe are the true teachings of Christ.
'Non-believers' may be 'casting stones on CHC' and I seriously could care less: to my mind, I do not accept 'CHC' as a legitimate church; on the contrary, I view your church as being all the more dangerous for the fact that it should be willing to call itself a church.
11) 'As for non-believer, the way CHC does have it's own purpose, how many times you go there. How well do you know and their doing? Simple thing like thithing kind of things can make your misunderstood, how much do you really know about other thing. I am not here to pick a fight with your but to speak the truth out of it. If you find the answer I gave may be harsh, please don't get offended. Kindly drop out of this topic. I really don't want to find fault with yout or you find problem with me.... "
Response:
So because non-believers are liable (in your opinion) to misunderstand the position of your church on tithing, do you then think that this would give you the right to conceal from them what might be described as the costs of discipleship, by way of an attempt on your part at inviting them to the services of your church (and this, in turn, by way of presenting them with what you tell them has been a gift that you have specially prepared for them and are specially intending to give to them)?
Do you not see how deceptive this sort of strategy makes you, or are you so deceived already that you cannot see this?
I would strongly caution the unbelievers here against attending the services of their 'church'.
Ben
Ps. Fugue, do continue to keep these people on their toes! I like your trenchant questioning. -
I hope that everyone contributing to this thread will click the link above and read my comprehensive rebuttal of 'dolphin'.
The issues are important; and I don't want anyone to be misled (whether Christian or otherwise).
Thanks.
Ben
Ps. Fugue, great work, as usual. I wonder how you deal with such demoralising people. Thanks, anyway. -
[quote]Originally posted by Nelstar:
[b]If your stupid God is so almighty, why did he have to REST?
YOUR bible said so.
He chose to rest; he didn't have to do so.
In the same way he didn't have to create the universe in the time that it took him to create it in; he could, for instance, have created it in a shorter or longer time (depending of course on what you regard as the duration of creation).
The scriptures have to be carefully and correctly sifted and interpreted before they can yield truth; otherwise you will only be distorting their fundamental import.
Your kind of argument is a joke, really.
Nevertheless, as you are (by your own admission an unbeliever) you don't faze me as much as the 'harvesters' do; on the contrary, I don't have a problem with points of view like the one you have just raised (though I would certainly be perturbed by the irreverence that you have shown in expressing it), and I feel that some of these viewpoints do raise questions that deserve serious answers.
No, my real bone to pick is with those who, because of their profession of Christianity, bring the name of Christ into infamy. -
it's not vy nice for u to post "wtf" over here.wrong spell doesnt mean i'm not a christian.Originally posted by coffeeortea:wtf? a self-proclaimed christian that does not know how to spell christianity more than once. also, i noticed some flaws in your posts. you have some beautifully written sentence and then when you try to explain the sentence in your own words, you always come up with some other meaning and with hard to understand sentences.
u r finding nonsense fault out of it(u post to me last time)
1stly- my horoscope nickname (what's the prob,jus a nick)
2ndly-uttering vugarity over here to ppl(mostly christian)
3rdly-spelling mistaking also can came to a debating topic.....??blur???
always watch ur language b4 posting. -
good job ben.Originally posted by MrBach:I hope that everyone contributing to this thread will click the link above and read my comprehensive rebuttal of 'dolphin'.
but then your rebuttal read like a legal document or philosophical analysis (like Kant liddat .. haha) .. maybe it's just me .. but I find it hard to comprehend sometimes.
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You're welcomed. By exhibiting their thoughts here, they have already shown their ugliness and lack of respect for their religion.Originally posted by MrBach:Ps. Fugue, great work, as usual. I wonder how you deal with such demoralising people. Thanks, anyway.
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then tell me which practises of city harvest are sanctioned by the bible?Originally posted by libra_gal:As a christian,we base on bible.As a human being,we all sin.Fun seeker are only for those who do not believe in bible,not believe got sin or in any religious jus for playing therefore most of the time they opp the normal way....!r u the one? charging members large sums of money? building big big shopping centre like complexes? dancing around in a trance? playing ho yeo sun's videos before "sermons"? -
I'm not against Christianity. Ask those in EH. I just hate those who keep propagating for it.Originally posted by MrBach:[quote]Originally posted by Nelstar:
[b]If your stupid God is so almighty, why did he have to REST?
YOUR bible said so.
He chose to rest; he didn't have to do so.
In the same way he didn't have to create the universe in the time that it took him to create it in; he could, for instance, have created it in a shorter or longer time (depending of course on what you regard as the duration of creation).
The scriptures have to be carefully and correctly sifted and interpreted before they can yield truth; otherwise you will only be distorting their fundamental import.
Your kind of argument is a joke, really.
Nevertheless, as you are (by your own admission an unbeliever) you don't faze me as much as the 'harvesters' do; on the contrary, I don't have a problem with points of view like the one you have just raised (though I would certainly be perturbed by the irreverence that you have shown in expressing it), and I feel that some of these viewpoints do raise questions that deserve serious answers.
No, my real bone to pick is with those who, because of their profession of Christianity, bring the name of Christ into infamy.
There is no wrong in propagating for it, but there is much wrong when the negative attention comes in, knowing how easily this can lead to conflicts of interests.
There are those who detest Christianity. I don't, I detest certain Christians who persist stubbornly and thus bringing unrest. If those anti-Christian propagate their thoughts in CC, I would have lambasted them in the same way.
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just one thing, christian and catholic is two BIG DIFFERENT THING! please go and read up a little on martin luthur........
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Originally posted by libra_gal:
what make u think mostly christian over here
it's not vy nice for u to post "wtf" over here.wrong spell doesnt mean i'm not a christian.
u r finding nonsense fault out of it(u post to me last time)
1stly- my horoscope nickname (what's the prob,jus a nick)
[b]2ndly-uttering vugarity over here to ppl(mostly christian)
always watch ur language b4 posting.[/b]
dont assume this and that. can u give us the figure to support this fact
3rdly-spelling mistaking also can came to a debating topic.....??blur???
Since this thread already a big mess, dont forget to water ur pea size brain to grow it bigger to think properly.
NOBODY would like to pick on you unless you want it to be. -
catholics are still christians.Originally posted by snk86:just one thing, christian and catholic is two BIG DIFFERENT THING! please go and read up a little on martin luthur........
ok, how will you label someone from the Russian or Greek Orthodox Church? -
what a big change of tone. didn't you call God weak? Let me quote you:Originally posted by Nelstar:I'm not against Christianity. Ask those in EH. I just hate those who keep propagating for it.
There are those who detest Christianity. I don't, I detest certain Christians who persist stubbornly and thus bringing unrest. If those anti-Christian propagate their thoughts in CC, I would have lambasted them in the same way. If your stupid God is so almighty, why did he have to REST?
why do you invoke God when it is the followers who are at fault? I mean, do you call Buddha names if you kenna cheated by monks on the street?
YOUR bible said so.
He's bloody weak!
He's not almighty, he needs rest!
Go read up your book of myths and stories to cheat weaklings... and see for yourself.
YOUR god needs REST!
WEAK!
why .. you scared of the joint fatwa issit?
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shouldn't you lambast yourself first?Originally posted by Nelstar:If those anti-Christian propagate their thoughts in CC, I would have lambasted them in the same way. -
If God/Buddha is reading this thread, he'll be shooking his head....
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Seems like christian always got trouble with other religions...
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are the schools and hospitals for god??? LOL!!!!!!!Originally posted by dO|pH|n3 a.k.a JaMiE:I admit that day I was a bit agressive because some of the people really made my head boil..
Firstly, I DID NOT say you cannot rejected their invitaion. Hwat I was saying was to those who said they just THROW the postcard away when his/friend gave to them. What does it show.
Of course, we don't force people to go if they really don't want to. City Harvest Church is a charismatic church. The way MANY of them do is about the same but don't take it as a force or a pressuring things to go. WE DO NOT FORCE PEOPLE TO GO. I agree, some may be a bit pestering.
REMEMBER we do not want your sympathy kind of money. If you want to give this kind of money, then they will not accept even if you give $10 or $1000. We want people who will give willingly. The money they gave is not for them but for GOD. We use a these funds to build church,school,hospital in other countries such as Banda Ache & Malaysia.
You may be know the goodness in it. When you know it, ou may think it ortherwise. I am not trying to change your mindset but to explain why and how the things we do.
We are imperfect people including people. So don't think that CHC people should be a perfect people and set an example for others. We are all human, we do sin also.
Whoever seen a CHC member take a gun or knife to force people to go. Never right. You want or don't want to go is up to you. It's your decision. One of CHC goal, to take the nation by storm and to be a whole new generation for them.
You may not agree but you cannot stop they way they do. They do is not because they want to be yaya-papaya or what, they just want to do good thing for GOD. How many peoples here think that CHC will not be able to build a builing in 1998(Economic Slump). Maybe you thought of that right, but we proved it wrong, not by the work of man but by the words of GOd.
whose money was used? god's arh?? how does he give it to you guys?? LOL!!! -
sorry to say this but as a christian i feel disgusted by you. If you call yourself a true blue christian I think u shouldn't be posting our religion here is a public forum and making a joke of yourself. Seriously, if u are a true blue christian I think your wouldn't even use this nick. Yes I do admit that christian are not perfect and if we know that why do should we have such a big fuss about our religion. It would make us look like self rightous people. There is no point in calling ourselves one thing and behaving in another way. And trust me, I know many people out there, people who I have met, who call themselves christians and are a big disgrace. Sad to say most of them are from city harvest church. It not that I am perfect or anything, And who am I to judge. BUt i think we should all check your values before we critise others.Originally posted by libra_gal:it's not vy nice for u to post "wtf" over here.wrong spell doesnt mean i'm not a christian.
u r finding nonsense fault out of it(u post to me last time)
1stly- my horoscope nickname (what's the prob,jus a nick)
2ndly-uttering vugarity over here to ppl(mostly christian)
3rdly-spelling mistaking also can came to a debating topic.....??blur???
always watch ur language b4 posting. -
u guys manage to read and understand libra gal's posts?
man, i cant..... -
oie dont come dont criticise lahz who r u to criticise a congregationOriginally posted by lady76:Huh! red hot chilli pepper serious ar? but they go CHC perform meh?
or they disband become CHC member liao? -
tired my bestOriginally posted by laurence82:u guys manage to read and understand libra gal's posts?
man, i cant..... -
stop this thread lar so irritating