Time is a measurement of change.

Change is a fundamental condition of existing.

Without change, the concept of time is useless.

Without change the concept of heaven is useless....

If everything is already "perfect" then, everything must logically be frozen in place... in perfection.

Either heaven is a place that is at absolute zero and frozen in perfection... or heaven does not exists.

But many things are not frozen in place.

Hence things are going into chaos.

Thus comes the theory of entrophy.

Originally posted by eagle:

But many things are not frozen in place.

Hence things are going into chaos.

Thus comes the theory of entrophy.

If things are changing... how can you use the word "perfect"? Yet the concept of heaven is a place of "perfection".

Wow, how many more "does not exist" threads are you gonna start?

Cheers.
CK

There are many concepts of heaven.

And we know not any of them.

Who says that heaven is the epitome of perfection.
And therefore in perfection it is frozen.

Heaven, paradise, nirvana, is an attainment.

An attainment that is an end in its self.

Or a means to an end.

Of that we know not.

Originally posted by CKeer:

Wow, how many more "does not exist" threads are you gonna start?

Cheers.
CK

For Andrew, there is no begining and there is no end.
For they do not exist.

The quest for wisdom is a never ending quest...

Originally posted by mancha:

There are many concepts of heaven.

And we know not any of them.

Who says that heaven is the epitome of perfection.
And therefore in perfection it is frozen.

Heaven, paradise, nirvana, is an attainment.

An attainment that is an end in its self.

Or a means to an end.

Of that we know not.

That is a Buddhist concept... just for argument sake... how is Buddhist Nirvana different from "death"?

It all works well if it doesn’t belong to this dimension your are looking at….

Originally posted by banzie:

It all works well if it doesn't belong to this dimension your are looking at....

What other dimension are you taking about?

I can also say it all works very well in the galaxy far far away...

Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:

What other dimension are you taking about?

I can also say it all works very well in the galaxy far far away...

Imagine a world without scarcity...

Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:

That is a Buddhist concept... just for argument sake... how is Buddhist Nirvana different from "death"?

I am not a Buddhist.
So here is something I know just fleetingly.
Nirvana is not death, in the sense of "born again".
It is not the death of the old self, birth of the new self.
It is a mental state (I think).
Our minds are in disarray, and impure.
It is possible to systematically purify the mind.
And attain the state of nirvana.
Which is actually the continuity of ourselves.
If you ponder, meditate, or quest deeply enough
And suddenly your muddled mind is clear, and you somehow "know".
You have clarity of the innermost mind without being affected by conceptual thoughts.You have attained the state of nirvana.
But you will still be you, except that you are now wiser, (I hope so).

Eh. if you don't want fifi to have her orgasm later you better stop anything to do with religious.

I think after this thread you'll open something about buddha. I advice you not to.

Originally posted by banzie:

Imagine a world without scarcity...

Is there enough food for every man and woman in this planet at this very moment? Yes

Yet many are still dying of hunger... are you sure that the problem is scarcity?

AndrewPKYap will not exist when FI bans him for spamming stupid threads.

Originally posted by mancha:

I am not a Buddhist.
So here is something I know just fleetingly.
Nirvana is not death, in the sense of "born again".
It is not the death of the old self, birth of the new self.
It is a mental state (I think).
Our minds are in disarray, and impure.
It is possible to systematically purify the mind.
And attain the state of nirvana.
Which is actually the continuity of ourselves.
If you ponder, meditate, or quest deeply enough
And suddenly your muddled mind is clear, and you somehow "know".
You have clarity of the innermost mind without being affected by conceptual thoughts.You have attained the state of nirvana.
But you will still be you, except that you are now wiser, (I hope so).

"Our minds are in disarray," - an acceptable statement

" and impure." - totally meaningless...

"systematically purify the mind." - totally meaningless...

"You have clarity of the innermost mind without being affected by conceptual thoughts.You have attained the state of nirvana."

That is not a place called "heaven" and we are talking about a place called "heaven"...

Originally posted by Darkness_hacker99:

Eh. if you don't want fifi to have her orgasm later you better stop anything to do with religious.

I think after this thread you'll open something about buddha. I advice you not to.

so in your esteemed opinion, should a thread that talks about heaven and nirvana be in ~EH~ or ~BWB~ or ~Atheism~????

Originally posted by siaokau:

AndrewPKYap will not exist when FI bans him for spamming stupid threads.

There are no syupid threads... only stupid people....

Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:

There are no syupid threads... only stupid people....

self pwn3d

Originally posted by MohamedF:

self pwn3d

Don't give me stomach cramps....

Originally posted by mancha:

I am not a Buddhist.
So here is something I know just fleetingly.
Nirvana is not death, in the sense of "born again".
It is not the death of the old self, birth of the new self.
It is a mental state (I think).
Our minds are in disarray, and impure.
It is possible to systematically purify the mind.
And attain the state of nirvana.
Which is actually the continuity of ourselves.
If you ponder, meditate, or quest deeply enough
And suddenly your muddled mind is clear, and you somehow "know".
You have clarity of the innermost mind without being affected by conceptual thoughts.You have attained the state of nirvana.
But you will still be you, except that you are now wiser, (I hope so).

What you said is right.. but just to add on (for everyone here as well).

Nirvana is not exactly a 'state' as if it can be entered and left. A good analogy is uprooting the whole tree by destroying the root of ignorance. With that, all chains of samsaric existence (12 interdependent links) is destroyed as they are all intrinsically inter-related. Once destroyed it can never re-appear.

This must come from insights and realisations. Purifying the mind is the process, but not the realisation... purifying the mind is not about getting rid of bad thoughts and keeping good thoughts, it is about clarity/awareness which shines through all our illusions and attachment to 'self' or our sentient thoughts, the clarity that brings about realisation. 6th Zen Patriarch Hui Neng says the Bodhi has no tree, the Mirror has no stand, originally nothing at all, where does the dust alight? Our nature has always been so, nirvana is just samsara rightly seen.

Whether the world is perfect or not is irrelevant... because then, no matter what happens you no longer suffer. The highest bliss is in nirvana; clarity.

Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:

That is a Buddhist concept... just for argument sake... how is Buddhist Nirvana different from "death"?

What death are you talking about?

Nirvana does not mean physical death.

It is the death of the 12 interdependent links -- http://www.dhammadana.org/en/dhamma/paticca_samuppada.htm

shit.

Remember you call for this digression to nirvana just for discussion sake.
nvm
OK, lets heed Darkness_hacker99 caution and go back to heaven.

Over all we have different concepts of the notion of heaven .
There is also the notion that heaven and hell is right here, now.
And from the concept of heaven we have the concept of hell.
And as hell is "imperfect" therefore it should exist.
Unless hell is also "perfect" needs no change, and therefore does not exist too.
We don't know.
Who are we to assume that heaven is perfect, hell is imperfect, and anything of that sort.
Heaven is a goal. Hell a disinsentive.
Therefore heaven maybe the proverbial carrot on a stick, move towards it and it moves away further.
So it may not be frozen in perfection.
One could already be in it, and move deeper and deeper in it, without realising it.
We don't know.
Just because we don't know, it does not mean it do not exist.

If "heaven" does not imply "perfection" than what is heaven? A place on earth?

Ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth ?
Ooh heaven is a place on earth
They say in heaven love comes first
We'll make heaven a place on earth
Ooh heaven is a place on earth