What are ur expectation for the 4th university
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well rounded in what? academic? perceptives? decision-making? situation analyse & problem solving?Originally posted by Ashearo:Good academic results do not mean elites, but students from JC going into university are more or less already well rounded. Good academics, good CCAs. -
Your basic assumption is that poly students do not get an equal opportunity to enter university. This assumption is invalid from the onset.Originally posted by Rock^Star:Since the fact that A level certs is sh.it do not justify why poly grads should not have an equal opportunity to enter uni, then why compare oranges with apples? Comparing tertiary with tertiary would be better and in this case, a diploma with a uni degree.
There is no one size fits all solution. While there is some truth that poly students should have considered their options carefully if this was the route that they had wanted to take, there shouldn't be any complaints, it doesn't obscure the fact that A levels and polytechnic have an altogether different curriculum and culture. Then in this case, can a poly student be discriminated against just because he deems the poly culture as more suitable for his advancement?
It is the quality, not the quantity. If the criteria for uni entrance is based on a rigorous schedule, then the Singapore education system has truly failed.
The latest admission criteria for diplomas into relevant degrees include an 80% weightage from their overall results plus 20% from their O level results with up to 10% of the total cohort intake available for discretionary intake. Selection for admission is totally dependant on academic merit with no cap placed on Poly graduate admissions provided the basic criteria for entry is met.
Our education policy is geared towards making poly a viable route to uni and with the inclusion of O level scores into the academic computation criteria, it allows for those good students who feel that the poly culture suits them better to stand a good chance of entering uni on equal footing as those who chose the JC route. This point should be considered before you assume that graduating secondary sch students who persue the poly route is discriminated against.
I do not understand how a criteria based on a rigorous schedule and strong academic focus is a liability to an education system such as ours. Care to elaborate? -
Pay scenario -> Cant you see that a poly's pay of 1500 is MORE DECENT than an A level student's pay of 1200? Both suck in the relentless rise in cost of living, but no doubt the poly student still gets paid BETTER than the A level student, given they both cannot make it into university.Originally posted by Rock^Star:For one who advocates that poly grad's pay is decent compared to an A level grad's pay when the relentless rise in cost of living is staring all Singaporeans right in their faces, now we see an about turn from you declaring your support for equality.
The current system is such that even if one works hard and does fairly well in poly, he is still less assured of a place in uni compared to an A level student who has done poorer. And this vicious cycle carries on all the way into working life, if one works in civil service, that is.
This opening of the fourth uni will ony serve to to tilt the balance into a more level playing ground and I'm all for it.....if it serves to make Singapore a more mature society.
Shouldnt the poly student just go to JC then? The fact is that JC students study damn hard and many only achieve the "poorer" results. -
Kindly read this carefully again: A poly grad who most likely cannot make it to the local uni may have to be stuck with a pay sub $2000 for many years. An A level grad who most probably can make it to uni will eventually earn much more than that and better job prospects to boot?Originally posted by Ashearo:Pay scenario -> I'm saying BOTH poly and A level student CANNOT GET INTO UNIVERSITY. They are stuck with poly cert and A level cert respectively. Poly student will have better prospects.
You said just now that we should be comparing the tertiary institutes, poly and uni (poly cert and degree). But i disagreed. i chose to compare poly and jc because these two institutions are where secondary students go to, and these two routes lead to university.
Poly course is 3 years, but if you compact it into a 7.30am-6pm, 5-day week, it wont be that long.
I'm referring to the LIKELY eventuality and that is the key to our discussion. Your argument is valid if A level grads are stuck only at A level certs no more. -
Academic wise, JC students who enter uni already have it. Perspective wise, im sure they gained alot through general paper. Decision-making, JC students are forced to make decisions just like poly students, over timetables, commitments. Situation analyse and problem solving, jc students have their fair share in project work. These are probably YOUR view of being well rounded.Originally posted by dcx:well rounded in what? academic? perceptives? decision-making? situation analyse & problem solving? -
And my argument is valid because i said both will not be going to university because they CANNOT. I know an artist who scored Fs for all his A level subjects cept his art. He cannot make it into university. People like him are stuck at A level cert and no more.Originally posted by Rock^Star:Kindly read this carefully again: A poly grad who most likely cannot make it to the local uni may have to be stuck with a pay sub $2000 for many years. An A level grad who most probably can make it to uni will eventually earn much more than that and better job prospects to boot?
I'm referring to the LIKELY eventuality and that is the key to our discussion. Your argument is valid if A level grads are stuck only at A level certs no more. -
all not answering TS
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So care to explain the extremely low percentage of poly students entering uni every year if our education policy is geared this way.Originally posted by Eikei:Your basic assumption is that poly students do not get an equal opportunity to enter university. This assumption is invalid from the onset.
The latest admission criteria for diplomas into relevant degrees include an 80% weightage from their overall results plus 20% from their O level results with up to 10% of the total cohort intake available for discretionary intake. Selection for admission is totally dependant on academic merit with no cap placed on Poly graduate admissions provided the basic criteria for entry is met.
Our education policy is geared towards making poly a viable route to uni and with the inclusion of O level scores into the academic computation criteria, it allows for those good students who feel that the poly culture suits them better to stand a good chance of entering uni on equal footing as those who chose the JC route. This point should be considered before you assume that graduating secondary sch students who persue the poly route is discriminated against.
I do not understand how a criteria based on a rigorous schedule and strong academic focus is a liability to an education system such as ours. Care to elaborate?
Perhaps you have misunderstood my statement. I have never opined that a rigorous schedule is a liability, just that it should never be used in its entirety as a sole criteria for admission, which of course was just a hypothesis. -
duplicate
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Friend like yours is a mere number compared to the thousands of poly grads who have missed out on the uni opportunity and these poly grads are hardly the F graders.Originally posted by Ashearo:And my argument is valid because i said both will not be going to university because they CANNOT. I know an artist who scored Fs for all his A level subjects cept his art. He cannot make it into university. People like him are stuck at A level cert and no more. -
Would you care to site your source of this "low percentage"? Percentage of the total applicants to uni/percentage of qualified applicants/percentage of total people from poly? These are subtle yet important differences that can change this "low percentage" you are citing.Originally posted by Rock^Star:So care to explain the extremely low percentage of poly students entering uni every year if our education policy is geared this way.
Perhaps you have misunderstood my statement. I have never opined that a rigorous schedule is a liability, just that it should never be used in its entirety as a sole criteria for admission, which of course was just a hypothesis.
A rigorous schedule is an imperfect measure and thus there is a 10% allowance for exceptional individuals. However, as flawed as it seems to you, I would like to hear your opinion about what other more conclusive methods we can use as a criterion for admission. Its no use saying something is bad unless you can come up with concrete suggestions. -
This is one person ive met. There are many others who score Bs and Cs and cannot make it into university. Scoring a pass alone is not that easy in JC.Originally posted by Rock^Star:Friend like yours is a mere number compared to the thousands of poly grads who have missed out on the uni opportunity and these poly grads are hardly the F graders. -
Source of this "low percentage"? Isn't it the rule of thumb for one to quote the link to a claim rather than a fact? A claim..... in your case? In my time 1999, the percentage was as low as 5% per cohort based on the post graduation survey.Originally posted by Eikei:Would you care to site your source of this "low percentage"? Percentage of the total applicants to uni/percentage of qualified applicants/percentage of total people from poly? These are subtle yet important differences that can change this "low percentage" you are citing.
A rigorous schedule is an imperfect measure and thus there is a 10% allowance for exceptional individuals. However, as flawed as it seems to you, I would like to hear your opinion about what other more conclusive methods we can use as a criterion for admission. Its no use saying something is bad unless you can come up with concrete suggestions.
What does a "rigorous schedule" entail? Is this the very rigorous schedule that resulted in LKY lamenting the lack of locals who could pose questions during a local symposium? Is this the rigorous schedule that cause the political apathy among Singaporeans today? Is the propaganda in our social studies textbook today the reflection of our rigorous schedule?
Anyway, I have not said that the rigorous schedule is a fault in itself, kindly comprehend correctly. If quality is prevalent even if rigorous, why not? -
It is well known that majority of A level grads make it into uni.Originally posted by Ashearo:This is one person ive met. There are many others who score Bs and Cs and cannot make it into university. Scoring a pass alone is not that easy in JC.
How often have you heard D graders ushered into uni, albeit maybe not the course of their choice. -
Kindly justify with statistics as per your claim.Originally posted by Eikei:Selection for admission is totally dependant on academic merit with no cap placed on Poly graduate admissions provided the basic criteria for entry is met. -
A testimonial extracted from the SP website:
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Mr Lim, a multiple-award winner from Singapore Polytechnic, went to the University of New South Wales (UNSW) when he was rejected three times by NUS.
By the time his appeal was approved, the electronics, computer and communication engineering poly graduate was already in his third year in social work at UNSW.
For the first class honours graduate who will marry in November, there was never any question about not coming back to Singapore.
'My family is here, my friends, my fiancee. I like Singapore for its security, tolerance and diversity. While I enjoyed my time in Australia, it never quite felt like home,' said the avid basketballer and guitarist.
Source: Click http://www.sp.edu.sg/SPweb/appmanager/home/default?_nfpb=true&T28400481471160376379105_actionOverride=%2FcmsTools%2Fextension%2Fcontentlist%2Fmain%2Flink&_windowLabel=T28400481471160376379105&T28400481471160376379105nodepath=%2FBEA+Repository%2Fnews%2FSP_in_the_News%2Faug06%2F22082006_NTUScholarship&_pageLabel=SP_ABT_SP_in_the_News_JulSep2006 -
THE top student at each of the five polytechnics here will soon get a bond-free scholarship to pursue undergraduate education - without even having to ask for it.
Nanyang Technological University (NTU) will make the offer in a scheme likely to start next year.
The announcement comes a day after Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong said in his National Day Rally speech on Sunday that overseas universities will court top polytechnic students with scholarships.
NTU's offer comes on top of scholarships already available to poly graduates, said all three local universities contacted by The Straits Times.
Details of NTU's automatic scholarship for poly students are still being worked out.
Some 10 per cent of polytechnic graduates - about 2,000 - enter local universities.
By 2010, this figure is expected to grow to 15 per cent.
Source:
By Liaw Wy-Cin
22 August 2006
Straits Times
(c) 2006 Singapore Press Holdings Limited
10%......growing to 15% only in 2010. Totally debunks whatsoever "myths" that some try to pass off as truths here. Go figure. -
You can't just claim "rule of the thumb" without citing where your rule or thumb came from. I would like to have a look at the post grad survey you are talking about, care to provide the link?Originally posted by Rock^Star:Source of this "low percentage"? Isn't it the rule of thumb for one to quote the link to a claim rather than a fact? A claim..... in your case? In my time 1999, the percentage was as low as 5% per cohort based on the post graduation survey.
What does a "rigorous schedule" entail? Is this the very rigorous schedule that resulted in LKY lamenting the lack of locals who could pose questions during a local symposium? Is this the rigorous schedule that cause the political apathy among Singaporeans today? Is the propaganda in our social studies textbook today the reflection of our rigorous schedule?
Anyway, I have not said that the rigorous schedule is a fault in itself, kindly comprehend correctly. If quality is prevalent even if rigorous, why not?
Your rhetorical questions serve no purpose to substantiate how another system of admission is better than the current one. The link between the ability or willingness to ask questions, the "political apathy" you claim and the "propaganda" you cite and our rigorous schedule is sketchy at best.
When proposing a logical argument, it is but only reasonable for one to demand a rigorous substantiation of fact, or are you against that too?
Please refer to the NUS/NTU admissions FAQ.Originally posted by Rock^Star:Kindly justify with statistics as per your claim. -
Originally posted by Rock^Star:
This 10% could be due to
THE top student at each of the five polytechnics here will soon get a bond-free scholarship to pursue undergraduate education - without even having to ask for it.
Nanyang Technological University (NTU) will make the offer in a scheme likely to start next year.
The announcement comes a day after Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong said in his National Day Rally speech on Sunday that overseas universities will court top polytechnic students with scholarships.
NTU's offer comes on top of scholarships already available to poly graduates, said all three local universities contacted by The Straits Times.
Details of NTU's automatic scholarship for poly students are still being worked out.
[b]Some 10 per cent of polytechnic graduates - about 2,000 - enter local universities.
By 2010, this figure is expected to grow to 15 per cent.
Source:
By Liaw Wy-Cin
22 August 2006
Straits Times
(c) 2006 Singapore Press Holdings Limited
10%......growing to 15% only in 2010. Totally debunks whatsoever "myths" that some try to pass off as truths here. Go figure.
[/b]
a) Only a small proportion of Poly grads who actually apply to go to the uni
b) A majority of the poly grads not being able to enter based on their academics even if they applied.
c) Poly graduates enter overseas universities on their on volition
Do keep in mind that some poly graduates did not have good grades to start with and perhaps we this 10% quoted is not a good representation of the actual situation due to the factors described above and thus it is pointless to use such a newspaper article to discuss factors and reasons for the lower number of poly graduates who become degree holders of our local universities. -
duplicate
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While I do not disregard the limited validity of your points a, b and c, they are after all, assumptions at best.Originally posted by Eikei:This 10% could be due to
a) Only a small proportion of Poly grads who actually apply to go to the uni
b) A majority of the poly grads not being able to enter based on their academics even if they applied.
c) Poly graduates enter overseas universities on their on volition
Do keep in mind that some poly graduates did not have good grades to start with and perhaps we this 10% quoted is not a good representation of the actual situation due to the factors described above and thus it is pointless to use such a newspaper article to discuss factors and reasons for the lower number of poly graduates who become degree holders of our local universities.
Substantiated claims would be much appreciated.
The Straits Times reported today (20 July, 2007) that:
“For local students, places were offered to 14,781, or 51 per cent, of those who applied.”
Only 2000 poly grads in there, therefore how many A level students entered? And the 90% of poly students who didn't make it, are they bad? This is the key flaw in the local eduation system. -
No point counter questioning here. Anyway, I regret that I do not have the internet link. You can take my word for it, this coming from a poly grad.Originally posted by Eikei:You can't just claim "rule of the thumb" without citing where your rule or thumb came from. I would like to have a look at the post grad survey you are talking about, care to provide the link?
Your rhetorical questions serve no purpose to substantiate how another system of admission is better than the current one. The link between the ability or willingness to ask questions, the "political apathy" you claim and the "propaganda" you cite and our rigorous schedule is sketchy at best.
When proposing a logical argument, it is but only reasonable for one to demand a rigorous substantiation of fact, or are you against that too?
Please refer to the NUS/NTU admissions FAQ.
Is "rhetoric questioning" all you can muster, given that our education system, rigorous or not, has contributed to this politcal apathy? However, that is another matter altogether.
Kindly provide me the exact link in the NTU/NUS admissions FAQ and quote me the number, if possible. Much appreciated. -
I did, it's in the first page.Originally posted by PwnYou:all not answering TS -
yar lorh yar lorh... pls dun get into heated discussion. i dun want my thread kenna lock.Originally posted by PwnYou:all not answering TS 
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i jus came to this thread, so wads all the argument about, can someone enlighten me
