About Original sin
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Let me start off by saying that this posting is not intend as a flame bait or to offend anybody.
I remembered that I once posted in a thread saying that the Original Sin refers to the sinful nature inherited, rather than the actual sin of eating from the Tree of Life itself. It is this sinful nature that leads us to sin, and we all know that the wages of sin is death. Somebody asked me if I can find any verses to support my view. So far, I have found a few.
ROM 7:5 - For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
GAL 5:16 - So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. (Gal 5:16-25 all talks about this sinful nature)
GAL: 5:24 - Those who belong to Jesus Christ have crucified the sinful nature with its passions, and desires.
I have also found few verses which seem to suggest that for those who died without having the chance to know Jesus will be given a chance even after their death. But bear in mind that this is different from those who knew but rejected.
JOHN 5:25 - I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
JOHN 5:28 - Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out - those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
John 5:28 seems to suggest that those who died without knowing him will be judged by their deeds.
Any comments?
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I can live with pain, but I cannot live without hope. -
by starting this post, u are oredi trying to stir up "something"Originally posted by Seifer:Let me start off by saying that this posting is not intend as a flame bait or to offend anybody.
dun need to put up excuse..
u see tt the forum is bery peaceful now and u cannot tahan, so mux make history repeat itself....
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~~Evi|Ger~~
more affectionately known as...
tHe eXtrA-oRdiNaRy eCCenTriC PaRanOid BiTch wiF thE PaiZaBor aTTiTudE
(who is a Prata-natic...and a loyal supporter of Quickly and Qoo~)
A hiaK~ is a sarcastic laugh
***It's a sin to be unobjective*** -
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[This message has been edited by FireIce (edited 18 March 2002).] -
This is interesting. I ever came across this two verses but never really understand. Now that you actually mention it, I started to see something...Originally posted by Seifer:I have also found few verses which seem to suggest that for those who died without having the chance to know Jesus will be given a chance even after their death. But bear in mind that this is different from those who knew but rejected.
JOHN 5:25 - I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
JOHN 5:28 - Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out - those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
John 5:28 seems to suggest that those who died without knowing him will be judged by their deeds.
Any comments? -
lai liao lai liao!!!!!!!
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~~Evi|Ger~~
more affectionately known as...
tHe eXtrA-oRdiNaRy eCCenTriC PaRanOid BiTch wiF thE PaiZaBor aTTiTudE
(who is a Prata-natic...and a loyal supporter of Quickly and Qoo~)
A hiaK~ is a sarcastic laugh
***It's a sin to be unobjective*** -
Originally posted by FireIce:by starting this post, u are oredi trying to stir up "something"
dun need to put up excuse..
u see tt the forum is bery peaceful now and u cannot tahan, so mux make history repeat itself....
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Stop that preaching seifer.
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just asking, Seifer, in 5:28 "those who have done good will rise to live"
what does that "live" means do you know?
does it means live on earth or does it mean elsewhere? -
For those who think that I am trying to preach or stir up troubles, please accept my apologies. That was never my intention. I just thought that it's not nice for me to leave the questions hanging in the previous threads.
Have a nice day!
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I can live with pain, but I cannot live without hope. -
REV 20:12-15 - And I saw the dead, great and small standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.Originally posted by Rapture:just asking, Seifer, in 5:28 "those who have done good will rise to live"
what does that "live" means do you know?
does it means live on earth or does it mean elsewhere?
Based on the above, my own deduction is that "rise to live" means that you will have ur name written into the book of life. This means that you will not suffer the second death and be thrown into the lake of fire.
Comments?
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I can live with pain, but I cannot live without hope.
[This message has been edited by Seifer (edited 18 March 2002).] -
5:28 "those who have done good will rise to live" about those who have done "good"Originally posted by Seifer:REV 20:12-15 - And I saw the dead, great and small standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Based on the above, my own deduction is that "rise to live" means that you will have ur name written into the book of life. This means that you will not suffer the second death and be thrown into the lake of fire.
Comments?
what is that "good" means? what is the definition of it ? -
Wath is that 5:24, 6:10, 8:20 ..???
Lim Pek Pai Tao Pek Gong one -
Hi Seifer,Originally posted by Seifer:REV 20:12-15 - And I saw the dead, great and small standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Based on the above, my own deduction is that "rise to live" means that you will have ur name written into the book of life. This means that you will not suffer the second death and be thrown into the lake of fire.
Comments?
Answer these questions:
1. Do you think Original Sin applies to ALL humans? In short, is it universal?
2. Do Jews believe in Original Sin?
3. When was the doctrine of Original Sin first formulated?
4. Are infants subject to Original Sin? In short, if they die "unbaptized" (in whatever myriad forms this "cleansing" takes today), do they go to hell, heaven, or that medevial concept called limbo? -
Frankly speaking, ur guess is as good as mine. I supposed he must be judged righteous when compared to the law.Originally posted by Rapture:5:28 "those who have done good will rise to live" about those who have done "good"
what is that "good" means? what is the definition of it ?
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I can live with pain, but I cannot live without hope. -
I can only try my best to answer ur queries.Originally posted by yidd:Hi Seifer,
Answer these questions:
1. Do you think Original Sin applies to ALL humans? In short, is it universal?
2. Do Jews believe in Original Sin?
3. When was the doctrine of Original Sin first formulated?
4. Are infants subject to Original Sin? In short, if they die "unbaptized" (in whatever myriad forms this "cleansing" takes today), do they go to hell, heaven, or that medevial concept called limbo?
1. My personal belief is that Original Sin refers to man's sinful nature. As such, I believed that ALL humans have it.
2. No idea.
3. No idea. I can try to find out.
4. Like I have mentioned, my personal belief is that Original sin refers to the sinful nature. Therefore babies are bornt with this sinful nature. But they are born sinless, coz while they have this sinful nature, they have not 'activated' it yet.
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I can live with pain, but I cannot live without hope. -
then I really wonder...how many people can really make it when compared to the law.........Originally posted by Seifer:Frankly speaking, ur guess is as good as mine. I supposed he must be judged righteous when compared to the law. -
From what I found out, the Jews does not believe in Original sin. That's why they believe they do not need Jesus to die for them for their salvation and they wanted the Romans to crucify Jesus instead because they hated Him. The Jews wanted a Messiah who punish the Jew's enemies, NOT someone who heals the blind and mute, NOT someone who is willing to be crucified by the Romans (also the Jew's enemies) to die for them.Originally posted by yidd:Hi Seifer,
Answer these questions:
2. Do Jews believe in Original Sin?
Untill now they are still waiting for the return of their Messiah who will "punish" those who attack them. But this return of Messiah was also the 2nd coming of Jesus who is supposed to come back to stop countries who attack Israel during the final world war.
In short, the Jews wanted the 2nd coming of Jesus, and they rejected his 1st coming.
[This message has been edited by Rapture (edited 18 March 2002).] -
People like Abraham lorOriginally posted by Rapture:then I really wonder...how many people can really make it when compared to the law.........
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I can live with pain, but I cannot live without hope. -
"Sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to ALL because ALL have sinned." (Romans 5:12)Originally posted by Seifer:I can only try my best to answer ur queries.
1. My personal belief is that Original Sin refers to man's sinful nature. As such, I believed that ALL humans have it.
2. No idea.
3. No idea. I can try to find out.
4. Like I have mentioned, my personal belief is that Original sin refers to the sinful nature. Therefore babies are bornt with this sinful nature. But they are born sinless, coz while they have this sinful nature, they have not 'activated' it yet.
And please, I would like to know when the doctrine of Original Sin was first formulated because I'd like to know two important things:
1. Whether the Original Sin had been taught by Jesus himself, or came much later as a result of creeds passed by the Church several centuries after Christ was taken up into heaven.
2. Whether Jesus was aware of this Original Sin and strove to die on the cross for the sins of mankind.
[This message has been edited by yidd (edited 18 March 2002).] -
The following verse is also very interesting.Originally posted by Rapture:then I really wonder...how many people can really make it when compared to the law.........
1 Peter 4:5,6 - But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
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I can live with pain, but I cannot live without hope. -
You are right. Sin came into this world thru one man, and death is the result of sin. But HOW did sin come into this world? Because we all inherited the sinful nature of Adam. It is this sinful nature that causes us to sin. Therefore all who sinned will die.Originally posted by yidd:"Sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to ALL because ALL have sinned." (Romans 5:12)
Clearly in GAL: 5:24 - "Those who belong to Jesus Christ have crucified the sinful nature.....", it is clearly shown that salvation entails the crucification of our sinful nature.
2 Peter 2:10 - This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
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I can live with pain, but I cannot live without hope. -
hmmmmmmmm...........Originally posted by Seifer:The following verse is also very interesting.
1 Peter 4:5,6 - But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
thanks... -
There is another interesting verse
Ecc 7:29 - This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes.
This verse clearly suggests that men was born without sin. Coz if they are, then they cannot be upright.
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I can live with pain, but I cannot live without hope. -
The answer is nooneOriginally posted by Rapture:then I really wonder...how many people can really make it when compared to the law......... -
"Sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to ALL because ALL have sinned." (Romans 5:12)Originally posted by Seifer:There is another interesting verse
Ecc 7:29 - This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes.
This verse clearly suggests that men was born without sin. Coz if they are, then they cannot be upright.
"Therefore, as by the offense of one [Adam] judgment came upon ALL men to CONDEMNATION." (Romans 5:1
Your replies are very interesting, but again, I would like to know when the doctrine was first formulated because of 2 reasons:
1. Whether the Original Sin had been taught by Jesus himself, or came much later as a result of creeds passed by the Church several centuries after Christ was taken up into heaven.
2. Whether Jesus was aware of this Original Sin and strove to die on the cross for the sins of mankind.