Originally posted by davidche:

ya school holidays now.

But if Laoda doesnt consent me also no use....

College is very stressful .. so be prepared ah

Originally posted by Wu Tang Clanionaire:

can sumone lemma kno a differences btw catholic and christian?????????

The proper way to phrase this will be like this. Protestants and Catholics are both Christians. For Protestants they attend services. It's usually P&W followed by preaching. Catholics attend Mass. To generalize, the basis of Protestant faith is personal and the Bible is the pillar (of coz faith too). Catholics attend Mass and we go through and have the 7 sacraments. Beyond this the pillars of the Catholic church is the Bible, Mageisterium and Traditions.

And if you are curious on whether the Bible is similar. Well there is a slight variations. Catholic Bibles have the Deutrocanonicals. Something like a second series of Books

Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:

This then is the epitome of having a religion. This is where people draws their strenght. This is where suicide bombers get their power. You too can have the power and strenght that you see in suicide bombers, but for you, when you have the power and the strength, you use it for good instead of evil.

All good and evil comes from FAITH.

This is why I have no qualms trying to debate as brilliantly as I possibly can to argue why you shouldn't believe.

You might think that I am putting down your faith, hellooooooo, I am trying to build it up... I want you to confront why exactly you believe, by faith! Not by logic, not by evidence, not by rational thinking, by FAITH.

If that is your purpose, i applaud you. However, every individual is unique and your might work for some but not others. Some people like the stick, some prefer the carrot, no?

Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:

So, you can actually debate and enjoy it, and laugh about it and tell people, "yah you are right, it is silly issn't it? It is silly for me to believe issn't it? That is a good point you have made. I shouldn't believe, since I accept what you say makes sense, but I do! It is a personal matter."

You can put in all the effort into the debate and you can don't care if you win or lose the debate because you can always fall back on, "hahaha I am so silly to believe, but I do!"

People can give you one hundred and one reasons why you should not love someone and you can debate with them and lose and say "You are right, I shouldn't love that person. You have shown brilliantly and I agree with you why I shouldn't love that person. But should I stop loving that person because you have argued brilliantly, and I have accept your arguments why I should not love that person? Over my dead body."

I concur with most of the points you mentioned. But what happens when someone less mature in his faith stumbles. Who then will be accountable?

Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:

It is not a matter of being trained in theology. Faith is personal. Nobody can argue against personal faith.

Theology can actually interfere with personal faith.

When I say, that the Christians are not up to the task of defending their faith, this is what I mean. That they do not understand the most basic premise of the Christan faith. That it is [b]personal.

Instead they get carried away with the debates and the "theology" if you like.
[/b][/quote]

I think you've misunderstood the Christians here. Most of us here place emphasis on personal faith.

However, during discussions, we're force to discuss religion empirically. This complicates or hinders some aspects of the discussion. I mean, how does a person adopt a positivist epistemological stance to discuss faith? And when discussion doesn't proceed in a positivist manner, antagonist say that Christians are deluded? It epitomises the flatland analogy problem.

[quote]Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:

Similarly, in matters of Faith, if you fall into the trap of arguing and debating with people over your faith, you will lose, just as you will lose if you try to argue and debate with someone why you should or should not love someone.

Everything else in life, like work, career, relationships (how to of relationships) you debate and analyse, but not in matter of faith and matters of love.

The very act of closing this forum shows that some of the people here do not understand the most basic premise of faith. That it is a personal matter.

Must you project such a skewed view unto sillyme? We have tried to explain that part of the reasons for closure is the lack of time. If we want to keep a forum running, we have to be responsible and make sure that other Christians do not stumble, or that degradatory statements are not made, or that proper respect is given to all religions. However, if the moderators can no longer upkeep this, it might be better to close the forum. It's not about misunderstanding the premise of our faith. And i do not think it is appropriate to assume too.

With all that being said, the decision on what happens to the forum still lies with Sillyme.

Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:

The problem as I see it is that the people "defending" the faith are not up to the task.

none of us here claim to be trained theologians. To compound this issue, our work committments have made long intense discussion difficult. Moreover, the purpose of this forum has long been stated. And if Sillyme feels that the forum has deviated from the original purpose, it's within his rights to close it.

To side track, at times, it's difficult to find middle ground in our discussions. Especially if both parties are myopic and refuse to try and understand what the other party is saying.

Originally posted by shinta:

y not just pm jason, den ask him to make this a public forum?

pass it on to someone else to moderate lor.. can be done what..

y is there a need to delete all threads?

well if he is to give it up, it is still his choice to make isn't it?

what i hope is for people to understand where he's coming from

Due to work committments, i haven't been really active these past months. But before everyone starts pointing fingers against Sillyme, do try to empathise with him. He's moving on to another phase of his life and like he mentioned, he might not have the time to moderate. Beyond this, if he feels frustrated moderating this forum and if it really causes im distress, then why shouldn't he close this forum?

For those that wish to carry on in a Christian forum, it's pretty easy to set up another one. And with the closure of EH, i'm sure the traffic there will be respectable.

Furthermore, whether or not sillyme relinquishes control to another member, i reckon it's up to him to decide.

Finally, Sillyme has put in so much effort with EH over the years. And if anything, i think we should thank him for that.

Originally posted by laurence82:

ok ok

once u come up i will start to harass u on msn

anything u say ah lau

Originally posted by laurence82:

u not on msn

seldom online these days. too busy with work. sigh. but i make it a point to come online to read through some of the postings

Originally posted by sillyme:

i think i'm hungry. colliks looked like horlicks to me
was on training the whole day. won't be visiting the forum during the day for the next two days.

CE and ben, please help ok?

ok !

I am still lurking around as always

and laoda, what are your views on hell? i would like to hear them

Originally posted by laoda99:

Most aspects? You know why? Becoz he is mixing half-truths together, and he even claim you don't even need Christ to be saved! And he dun believe in eternal damnation, tat's why he is not afraid of adding his own intepretation!

I would like to know ur concept of Hell first. Mebbe in PM.

actually what he is saying pertains to people that has never heard the gospel message. And the people that lived before Christ, etc. There are actually a lot of works pertaining to this area of theology. With that being said, do i agree with Maven totally? i am yet undecided. I remember once using his line of argument when i was talking to a seminarian friend. The discussion went deeper than that actually. we were discussing the issue of suicide. And whether a person committing suicide would be punished with eternal damnnation. It flowed something along the lines of 'it depends on circumstances' where a person having depression has no power over his choice of death very much like a person having HIV has no power over his illness too. In the same way, when a person lives in areas where the Gospel has not been preached, and where he is not offered the choice to turn to God. What will happen to him? It then followed to the people who grew up Buddhist. Kind people who pursue their religion but due to conditioning would not have any chance of turning to God. Do these people have a free choice? it's up to debates too. In our discussion, we discussed about the nature of God. Omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. Yet, the central character of God is Love. or at least to me it is. If God is Characterized by Love, it is interesting to think whether he will give them a 2nd chance. But before anyone labels me as a heretic. These are just my sincere passing thoughts and i understanding that faith and works that flows from that faith is what marks my salvation. But then again, i am privileged. i had the fortunes of being born to Catholic parents who incalcate in me Catholic values since a young age.

As for my concept of hell. I was quite swayed by the views of the late Fulton Sheen where he describes it as a place devoid of God's love. And in many cases, it is not God that damns us there. But rather it's the people that do not have the faith or face to face God that condemns themself to that place. But laoda, please understand that these are just personal thoughts. And they are not representative of the stance of the Catholic Church. I am still journeying like you are. and views change. But as long as your foundation doesn't get too much shaken and your faith in Christ remains, i think by all measures, everything will be fine.

Originally posted by Icemoon:

He denied all your labels.

He is not Protestant Christian like you. Whether he is a Catholic, we should let the Catholics here judge.

Actually, i've read a couple of books on salvation outsid the Catholic Church. It's been richly depicted and tackles the issue on:

1. Our Protestant brothers.

2. The Jewish relationship with us.

This aspect is pretty interesting. for those not acquainted, before Vatican II, the Catholic church actually prayed for the forgiveness of the Jews.

3. The issue on people that have not heard the Gospel. Do they get salvation?

i might be mistaken or not up-to-date (so please correct me if i misrepresent the Catholic Church). But from my own readings, i dun think that there is an official stance on this issue. however, most aspects of what maven brought up isn't heresy. or at least i don't think so.

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Anyway, i think Icey brought up something about the attractiveness of Chrsitianity. I think i would like to share my personal convictions on the specialness of the Catholic church. To put our focus on salvation seems slightly counter-intuitive to me.

Firstly, i was and am a sinner - undeserving of salvation. But God in his Love, sent his son to die for our sins, so that we may rise together with him in becoming a new creation. To me it's a privilege. Something that no amount of works can achieve.

What then differentiates the Cathoic church? the Sacraments. partaking in the Eucharist, the Mass- it's solemnity and sacredness.

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Sorry for the incoherent flow of ideas. i think my flu medicine is kicking in.

to laoda: Heaven and Hell exist in Catholicism; and to your disapproval, so does purgatory (Dun cringe). there's no argument to that. And if you reject Christ, eternal damnation will happen. What follows however.. is the nature of these places.

Is Hell a place of eternal damnnation? or just a place void of God's Love? In the latter case, some would say that it is worse than the former.

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and laoda, what is your idea of hell? i really would like to hear more from you

2-0 to the gunners

Dun worry Stellazio, u're doing the right thing

btw, i find how u replaced the stuff they say with ' ' damn amusing

I've never like Becks (not a man utd fan ), but.. woah. Mclaren is disgusting. He is trying to claim credit??

disturbing really

Originally posted by felirox:

yeah from this article Walcott is the top scorer for the eng U-21 squad..right??

I saw some of Walcott's finishing, he looks the part of the natural goalscorer. However, less season his excuse was that he was hampered by a shoulder injury. Let's see whether he will come good. The only fault i can find is his built. Too slight its easy for defender to push him off..

But

they must catch him first though

Originally posted by idwar:

OK-- the topic is :

Singapore got no more Past= all destroyed in the name of progress, and this has contributed to the general sense of Alienation amongst every singaporean

At this rate, Singapore is a Hotel, not a home

if this is not a slippery slope, i don't know what is

again, it's the finishing

in the past, we could rely on pires to get that additional 10 goals. freddie and reyes would have contributed too.

now i look at the team, you can't help but feel peck chek

especially last season when both RVP and Henry were out, our finishing was diabolical

I remember cesc missing a sitter right in front of goal. at that point, i gave up

that being said, i hope Walcott will come good next season

Originally posted by felirox:

Yeah he is gonna stay. He just smsed me ytd

i can confirm this. Henry had supper with me last night, we were eating prata. He said that he will be staying and that he managed to convince Ronaldinho, messi and et'o to come to the Emirates

Congrats to felirox!!



make this forum a cool place for all the fans of the gunners

Well, it's all nice and good the stuff u posted canny. But there's so many issues to dwell upon. I am not you, you are not me. There are certain things in my life that you won't be able to comprehend. Neither will i be able to comprehend yours. That doesn't make either of us bad, naive or silly

A marriage in my definition is different from yours. When couples are dating, we share stories and dreams. We talk about the marriage she always wanted the ambience of the church, the nice honeymoon getaway, etc. These are things that i want to give to her. (The reason are deep and they shall remain private)

Beyond that, we need to pursue our dreams. She's chasing hers, i am chasing mine. We're miles apart due to our differing goals, but the love is still strong. Every relationship has it's own idiosyncracies, so you can't expect me to adopt yours.

With that being said, it's good that you're happily married. And you have nothing but my sincere well-wishes

cheers

Originally posted by trendz:

is he a girl? guys should take this in a light-hearted way.

it's obvious u're pushing his buttons

i've said my piece, if u wanna stick to your story, so be it

please close this lah

GP is sensitive to such things

aiyoh