Originally posted by breytonhartge:

Hi creation,

I don't use JC, I use Yeshua. Very different.

Sori brey, i use JC becos many christians don't know the name Yeshua. 

Originally posted by breytonhartge:

Actually shabbat is to be observed by all who wish to follow the God of Avraham, Yitzak and Yakov. See Numbers 15:15. See also Exodus 12:49. Goyim believers in Hashem, have the same requirements to follow Shabbat. It was never changed and it is an ordinance throughout all our generations.

Exodus 12:49 refers to the celeberation of the Passover by both the children of Isreal and proselyte who live with them.  Gentile soujourners are not allowed to celeberate the Passover in the same manner as Isreal. However a proselyte may cerebrate the passover with the children of Isreal.

Exodus 12:43-49

The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the statute of the Passover sacrifice: No estranged one may partake of it.
And every man's slave, purchased for his money you shall circumcise him; then he will be permitted to partake of it.
 A sojourner or a hired hand may not partake of it.
It must be eaten in one house; you shall not take any of the meat out of the house to the outside, neither shall you break any of its bones.
The entire community of Israel shall make it.
And should a proselyte reside with you, he shall make a Passover sacrifice to the Lord. All his males shall be circumcised, and then he may approach to make it, and he will be like the native of the land, but no uncircumcised male may partake of it.
There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who resides in your midst." All the children of Israel did; as the Lord had commanded Moses and Aaron, so they did. It came to pass on that very day, that the Lord took the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt with their legions.

Here is a commentary by Rashi on the issue.

49. There shall be one law. [This verse comes] to liken a proselyte to a native also regarding other commandments in the Torah.

Originally posted by domonkassyu:

hmm..very insightful..thanks..but how did he derived that out??paying for the water??

Later in the chapter of Exodus, when the children of Isreal leave Egypt, they leave with great riches, ya?

Originally posted by domonkassu:

no sabbath..the mosiac law was considered fufilled by the arrival of JC.

Under the mosiac law, the sabbath is to be observed by Isreal only.  The sabbath law is not applicable to gentile believers in Hashem.  How than can the mosiac law be considered fufilled by JC for the gentile?

Originally posted bydomonkassyu:

thanks for the answer..but that wasnt what i meant. exo--7:17-19 read through it in NIV version. and many times were stated all water in egypt became blood..what does all mean again??

Exodus 7:17-19 comes under Parshah: Va'eira Exodus 6:2 to 9:35.  Here is an explanation by the sages for verses 17-19:

vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone (7:19)

If an Egyptian and an Israelite were in one house where there was a barrel full of water, and the Egyptian went to fill a pitcher, he would discover that it contained blood; but the Israelite would drink water from the same barrel. If the Egyptian said to him: "Draw me some water with your own hand," and the Israelite gave it to him, it became blood. Even if he said to him, "Let us both drink from one vessel," the Israelite would drink water but the Egyptian would drink blood. Only when he had bought the water from the Israelite for money was the Egyptian able to drink water, and in this way the Israelites became rich.

(Midrash Rabbah)

Originally posted by domonkassyu:

1stly,brey is a jew no??hes judaism..

Btw, Brey believe that JC is YHVH, Judaism don't believe in JC, so i think the believe that JC is YHVH will qualify Brey as believing in a type of Christianity, that is not mainstream.

Originally posted by domonkassu:

for the JW..they believe in JC as the son of God as stated in the bible. the almighty God is not a 3in1 God head. in this part, they are a little like Judaism..however, they believed truly that JC is the messiah and redeemer. just that JC aint no God.

core beliefs are that God, Jehovah, is the supreme being that has the right to rule all creation. JC the boy will support fully whatever the Dad wills.HS is a breath of God.

the so called armageddon is a period of time for dead loved ones to be resurrected so they can be judged and learn about Jehovah God.( this is the same God as Yahweh, Yodh He Waw He). all this will be inconjunction with the restoration of the planet and human body. while satan and frens is in the pit for 1k years. after the 1 k years, satan will be released for a final test.all who side him again will die.

btw, they do not believe in immortality of the spirit,hell fire,idolatries,xmas and easter.

basically, core beliefs = adhering to the bible lor.

How about the 7 main feasts of the LORD, JW also celebrate these feasts?   How about the sabbath and the 613 law of Moses?

Originally posted by domonkassu:

dumbdumb, if u wanna know more about JW, ask me..i studied their works b4..

Me also want to know more about JW leh. 

Originally posted by domonkassu:

then where did the egypt mages found extra pure water to turn them into blood too?

The answer can be found in verse 24.

Originally posted by M&P:

Someone could provide me with an answer on the dead acccording to Judaism?

In Judaism, when a person dies, he sleep.  There is no "Hell" like those in Christianity, where unbelievers enjoy eternal BBQ.  Both believers and non believers will not go to heaven when they die, they just sleep or rest until the end of the age.

Originally posted by M&P:

Yes of course I know that Judaism doesn't recognise Jesus. what I meant was that Judaism doesn't tell you that Christian festivities are the mark of the beast. Or do they?

Judaism does not believe in the NT or the mark of the beast.  The comment that Christian festivities are mark of the beast is not from Judaism becos Judaism in the first place don't believe in the existence of the beast.  This comment that Christian festivities are mark of the beast, is made by breytonhartge in the capacity of a christian and a believer in Jesus.  There are many sects and branches within Christianity that view each other as deviant. e.g The JW is considered a cult by most Christians.  Protestant will not agree with RC etc. 

Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:

Ooops I just read the sticky thread of 'the mark of the beast' and there Breyton wrote that Christian festivities and Sunday mass are actually the mark of the beast. Well I respect other people's belief but this is insane if not idiotic. But I realize that Breyton's interpretation of the scripture is not that of the official stand or interpretation of the official Judaism i.e, in that it was his own.

You know Christians also celebrate mass on Saturday...

And the Moslems go to the Mosque on Friday. Why didn't Breyton accuse them too?

And also the Buddhist and the Hindus...

So I guess I could not take this Breyton's opinions on a serious scale as they are rubbish imo.

Officlal Judaism??.  Rabbinic Judaism don't believe in Jesus or the New Testament "Brit Hadasah".  BTW Breytonhartge believe in Jesus and the New testament.  His beliefs are not rubbish, they are consistent with a type of Christianity that don't celebrate Christmas and Easter.  If i am not wrong, like Judiasm,  they celebrate the 7 feasts of the LORD.  They also believe in the 613 law of Moses.  I am not sure whether this 'Breton guy' also brit milah,  unless  u can inspect his KKJ u will not know.  Maybe Breytonhartge can enlighten us more on the issue of brit milah and his type of christianity.

Originally posted by 24/7:

Will people die for something they don't believe in or don't have good reason to? Will you die for your faith?

Only cults brainwash their followers or sheeps to die for their faith.

Originally posted by 24/7:

lemme guess ...

nobody's right or wrong.

none of the sages insisted that he was right.

the beauty of the Mishnah is that there's no right or wrong actually, it's all a matter of perspective / preference? Sounds very postmodern...

Hi 24/7,

I am afraid you guess wrongly that nobody's right or wrong.  Let me give another example.  Parliament enacts Law, the Court system is responsible for its interpretation and implementation.

Originally posted by 24/7:

and your point / meaning / suggestion / hypothesis is...

Hi 24/7,

Let me use an example from the Mishnah.  This is about the reciting of the Shema in the evening.

1.1

A.  From what time may they recite the Shema in the evening?

B.  From the hour that the priests enter (their homes) to eat their heave offering,

C.  "until the end of the first watch"

D.  the word of R. Eliezer.

E.  But sages says, "Until midnight."

F.  Rabban Gamaliel's says, "Until the rise of dawn."  The mishnah, a new translation, Jacob Neusner, Yale University Press. p 3.

From the above, who is right and who is wrong?  Did any of the sages insist that he is the only person who has the correct interpretation?  This is the beauty of the Mishnah.

Originally posted by 24/7:

'They'? Christians?

To answer your question, I quote the following verses:

10All that generation also were gathered to their fathers; and there arose another generation after them who did not know the LORD, nor yet the work which He had done for Israel.

 11Then the sons of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD and served the Baals,

 12and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the LORD to anger. NASB

I believe that this is a problem faced by both Jews and christians.  Imagine the countless sects in christianity.  Every person will claim that his version is correct and others wrong. 

Originally posted by 24/7:

Jews do not believe the Torah to be complete too lor, then whats the use of your Oral Tradition and Talmud.

Hi 24/7,

To understand the relationship between the Written and Oral Torah,  useing this example.  In another thread in this forum, using the example of Mrlimkopi and dumbdumb.  The NT teaches christian to love your neighbour, but dumbdumb, has an issue with catholic, so how?  ChinEng advise dumbdumb to chill.  Has dumbdumb trangress the written code? Can we blame dumbdumb?  Surely not, everyone of us transgress the written code of law given in the bible. From these transgression we learn to overcome our human weakness, to prevail, to improve.  Thus the (oral?) advise from an elder christian to a younger christian to chill.   Out of hate, we may learn to love, to overcome our hate, to be human, to draw closer to GOD.

To quote Solomon:

A Time for Everything

 1There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven--
    2A time to give birth and a time to die;
         A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
    3A time to kill and a time to heal;
         A time to tear down and a time to build up.
    4A time to weep and a time to laugh;
         A time to mourn and a time to dance.
    5A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones;
         A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.
    6A time to search and a time to give up as lost;
         A time to keep and a time to throw away.
    7A time to tear apart and a time to sew together;
         A time to be silent and a time to speak.
    8A time to love and a time to hate;
         A time for war and a time for peace. NASB

So, the Torah is the written code which Hashem has given to humankind and the oral torah is like the interpretation of how we are to live according to the written code.  Of course different sages will give their diverse and even conflicting views.  If everything is simple and straightforward, in black and white, than our Earth would be like heaven, right?  We human have free will to chose,  please chose wisely, for the rewards at the end of our struggle, would be, like the christian belief - Heaven.  In the context of Judaism, a share in the world to come. 

Originally posted by ChiBet:

Would heaven really be heaven if you cannot be with the ones you love? Would GOD/CHRIST ask me to abandon the ones I love to hell?

I know GOD/CHRIST ask us to love all unconditionally but I am not at that level yet. how can I love strangers and save them from hell when whose who are closest to me and those I love/love me most are still in danger of going to hell?

Hi ChiBet,

Please repeat after me, In Judaism there is no such place called  land of eternal BBQ. Hashem is a GOD of love who loves his creations unconditionally.

Don,t  believe in teachings that threaten decent people with the prospect of a one way ticket to the land of eternal BBQ.  Just remember that Hashem loves you, your family and all his creations. Nothing happens in heaven or on earth without Hashem approval. Hashem is the first and the last, Hashem is the King of the Universe.  Believe in Hashem and only Hashem and the peace of Hashem will be with you.

Originally posted by Icemoon:

Fled back lor

Bible did not say that Moses fled back leh.

Originally posted by 24/7:

Its true that the bible read by itself can be pretty confusing, but this dubious honour is not reserved to religious documents alone. Our knowledge of GOD isnt complete, even if His revelation to us is.  That's why we try to rely on systematic frameworks and theology to inform our beliefs.

Have to disagree, Hashem is a GOD of order not confusion.  Hashem has given the full and complete Torah to Moses at Sinai. Knowledge of Hashem is incomplete because they refused to learn Torah from people that know Torah.

Originally Posted by 24/7:

hah, really ah? On what basis?

Because some people revised the old Tanakh JPS translation and improvised it in light of new knowledge to deal with snakes? Cannot be right. How can the new be better than the old?

The old Tanakh JPS translation reads, "And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it."

If you use the new Tanakh translation, it also doesnt fit in with what the Pirke Eliezer said about this part - a 'fiery serpent', the JPS translators must be pretty darn brave to "recoil, i.e. reflex action" only.

Use only the Tanakh and miss out on the best part?

John 3:14, "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,"

I don't think so. =)

How can the new be better than the old?  Is the 1917 JPS translation better than the 1985 translation?  A difference of 68 years.  For the benefits of those who don't have the 1917 edition:

1 And Moses answered and said: 'But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice; for they will say: The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.' 2 And the LORD said unto him: 'What is that in thy hand?' And he said: 'A rod.' 3 And He said: 'Cast it on the ground.' And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it. 4 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Put forth thy hand, and take it by the tail--and he put forth his hand, and laid hold of it, and it became a rod in his hand-- 5 that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.' Tanakh JPS 1917 edition.

I will try to explain why I chose the 1985 edition over the 1917 edition. We should first understand the teachings of Judaism.  Ask any rabbi, what am I doing in this world, what's the purpose? I beleive christians also asked this question as in the book 40 days purpose driven life by Rick Warren.

According to rabbinic teachings, we are created with a free will, to improve ourself, to overcome our evil inclination.  This world is full of temtations for us to overcome, when we overcome we improve. Unlike angels, we human can rise by improving ourself. 

25 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 26 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was strained, as he wrestled with him. 27 And he said: 'Let me go, for the day breaketh.' And he said: 'I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.' 28 And he said unto him: 'What is thy name?' And he said: 'Jacob.' 29 And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Tanakh JPS 1917.

The Torah teaches us that Jacob has struggled with God and with men and has prevailed. From the day we are born, our struggle begin.  Hashem give us the Torah to help us in our struggle,  to improve and to prevail.  The Torah is the instruction book for life given by Hashem to all humankind.

With this concept in mind, I will try to answer your question, How can the new be better than the old.  The fundamental scripture, written in Hebrew remain unchanged, only the translation has changed to reflect more accurately the intended meaning that is written in Hebrew.  So, the new translation should be an improvement over the older  translation, otherwise, why bother?

You will also notice  in verse 4 that, Moses is near enough for him to hold the snake by its tail.  If he had fled, would this be possible?  About the Pirke Eliezer commentary of a 'fiery serpent'  What actually is a 'fiery serpent', is it possible to hold a 'fiery serpent' by its tail? Nobody knows right? 

You have quoted John 3:14. Care to explain how the 2 incidents are related?

Originally posted by Icemoon:

darn .. is this why 24/7 told me to read bible properly?

he already know is translation problem liao?

Should recommend  24/7 to use only the Tanakh?

Originally posted by Icemoon:

only have problem with Moses running away from the snake. The rest I don't care.

So did Moses run away from a snake?

According to christian bible the answer is yes, Moses did fled or run away.  According to the Tanakh, the answer is no, Moses did not run away.

3 The LORD said, "Throw it on the ground." Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. NIV

3Then He said, "Throw it on the ground." So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it. NASB

 3And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it. KJV

3 And he said, Cast in on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it. ASV

3 He said, "Cast it on the ground and it became a snake; and Moses recoil from it. Tanakh JPS

The Tanakh translate the verse as recoil, i.e a reflex action.  I think this is only a case of translation problem, the Jews and Christian translate the same verse differently  changing its meaning.

Orginally posted by domonkassyu:

true christiandom never condemn non-believers to hell for a few reasons.1st is cuz no hell exist. 2nd, during armageddon, many will be resurrected and given a chance to know Yodh Heh Wah Heh. and to accept His sovereign rule.only those that despite being shown the truth of what happen still decide to side with the slanderer will die a permanent death.(read not ending up in hell but permanent death)

the thing about believeing in God or not is do we understand what was the whole cause of it. why was the perfect and beautiful angel known as satan the devil?why people have to take sides?once you understand that, then you will answer your own qns. and Yodh Heh Wah Heh loves his subjects to ask qns about him.not just blind faith like so many exhibit now.

Your theology is rather unorthodox.  Almost every christian denomination believe in the land of eternal BBQ.  Do you also believe in the NT?  How about Satan?  I am not only curious but also intrigued by your theological position.

Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:

Hmm I once asked the Lord to give me an earthquake on the ground which I stood. Exactly about 3 seconds later the floor was swinging crazily. People started to squat. One girl which I saw soon squatted with her hands holding on the floor and remained in that position until the floor stopped swingging. I remained standing though I thought of squatting but hey I did ask for it. Now I know how an earthquake feels like.

I know what it feels to have a heavy vehicles passing the road in high speed and it was nothing like that.

Now I must be so crazy to tell this....kind of bullshit eh? LOL

Just wondering if any of your claims can be verified by an independent authority like IMH.