Originally posted by wilsonhao:

I wonder if Adam and eve ate the tree of knowledge of good and evil, isnt that good? To know what is good or bad isnt something bad at all just because God says they cant. I seriously dont understand. I want to hear from readers what are their views.

If you are answering me that this is God's will then forget it =)

God created man with special privilege: free will. The consequence will be we can either choose God or we don't.

Obeying God's word means we love Him and we choose Him. Won't you feel pleased when you tell your son not to eat the cookies on the table when you leave him until you come back, and knowing that your son don't eat even someone keep telling him to just eat it because it is good. And he don't eat because you say so, and because he love you?

Another fact is that knowledge comes with responsibility, if you don't do anything when you know your brother is stealing, you are considered involved.

That is my view.

Fr Remi made a very good point regarding last Sunday bible reading:

"‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
He replied, ‘No, if you pull up the weeds
you might uproot the wheat along with them.
Let them grow together until harvest;"

He says that both weeds and wheat exist in everyone of us, so we should not point finger.
It makes sense because the master says "you might uproot the wheat along with them"
If we are punished immediately on our evil deeds, we won't have chance to grow our good deeds.

And I believe the harvest time is when we die, when we can no longer live or continue our deeds.

Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:

Second Vatican council tells that. Don't have me look for the exact phrase. The link that Malcom gave it's not the text of the 2nd Vatican council. As long as I can remember 2nd Vatican council reconciled the catholic church with other world's religions as one of the result is the acknowlegement that salvation doesn't come solely from the Catholic church.

In Vatican II document, Lumen Gentium 16 also say something essentially the same with CCC 1260 above.

"Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience."

It is also talking about invincible ignorant, however today I think almost everyone in this world have heard of Christ in one way or another, so in my opinion invincible ignorant people are quite rare spicies nowadays.

This document seems has been misinterpreted by people and give the wrong impression that the doctrine has changed, however Vatican has clarified with the second link that I gave you "RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH" from Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith on 29 June 2007. It is good to read so we can understand better, this is the first question:

FIRST QUESTION

Did the Second Vatican Council change the Catholic doctrine on the Church?

RESPONSE

The Second Vatican Council neither changed nor intended to change this doctrine, rather it developed, deepened and more fully explained it. 

Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:

You have a great logical sense.

 

This is not true, I am not any greater than you are. I have tried to remember where I got it from, it is actually from 2 sources, but it is not from bible. First is from the vision of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich, and the second is from the Byzantine icons, this is one of them:

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/d/duccio/buoninse/maesta/verso_3/verso24.html

The episode that Christ decent to hell is actually mentioned in Apostle's Creed

"He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again."

Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:

Anyway there is a change of view on the issue of salvation from the head of Catholic church. Somebody who is more knowledgebale could verify or explain this?

I am responding to this, not because I think I am more knowledgeable, but just like to share something i found regarding your statement, the document date is 29 June 2007

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:

Do you think Abraham was not saved or Elijah? or Moses? or Joseph? Surely they are all saved. Jesus hasn't even been born in their life time.

I think I read somewhere that they all actually was in waiting until Jesus resurrection and Jesus took them with Him. Do not have reference, could be true or not true, but it make sense to me.

"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved." (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1260)

From what I understand, the “ignorant” above is what is called invincible ignorance.

The example would be someone who has a very low IQ, but he like to find out about the Truth, but even he read, hear it all, his understanding cannot be increased, and no matter how many time people try to explain, also cannot, but he is trying very hard to do God's will according to his limited understanding, then he is invincible ignorance. This is not the same with someone who refuse to understand due to his stubbornness.

Another example is someone who is average or above average intelligent, however he live in the remote location, unable to find out about the Truth, no internet, no book, no telephone or other communication to outside world, but he doing hard as per his understanding to do God's will.

Catholics treats statues in the same way as other religious objects like religious pictures, we honor it.

If someone put your photograph on the wall, and then do offensive things to the photograph like stab a knife on it or burn it, and you watch all these things happen, will you feel offended? Why? Is it because your spirit is inside the picture? Or you are the picture? No right?
It is the same with the opposite, if someone honors the picture (maybe because you have done something great, just as example), will you feel pleased? Of course, right?

God is almighty omnipotent omnipresence, and not a single thing happens anywhere in the universe without His knowledge. In my simple mind, I feel that He will be offended when you do offensive things to His image and pleased when you honor them, not because He or His spirit is inside the image or He is the image itself.

This is to make you understand why Catholics honor religious items. If you understand, you can see that these statues and images are not idols at all, but if you refuse to understand that, no one can stop you.

Catholics honor cross with Jesus Christ on it, it is called crucifix. It also reminds us that it is us who crucify Him with our sins, our negligence, our disobedient, our evil thoughts, our indifference toward Him, etc. It reminds us that we have been redeemed by Christ with His real sufferings, with His body and blood, that every time we sin, we would be adding His sufferings.

And another thing, although Catholic Church permits honoring religious items, She does not teach to worship religious items. Any catholic who do that is doing in his/her own accord. If you don't know what Catholic Church teach, I suggest, before making any judgment on the teaching, don't go to Google and click only the links that catch your interest, but click on the links on official Church websites, fair enough?

Originally posted by Chin Eng:

seeking your opinion here... there is absolutely no intention for flaming.

1. Can we complete detach ourselves from the topic we are discussion - note that the context here is our religious inclination. Note also that our religious inclination is based on our personal understanding of the scriptures.

2. When such differences in understand of the scriptures erupt, how should it be handled?

3. When there is a flaring out, one party admitted to being too hot headed and backoff with an apology, can he still continue to debate with a slightly more gentle spirit?

again, I emphasize, I only need your opinion.

 

1. Yes can. Stating personal beliefs and reason behind it is ok, should be intended as information only, not as a prove that other party is wrong. Debate on the actual reasons also ok, as long as not making comments on the other party personals or groups. It is definitelly possible, I have seen it in other forums.

2. The discussion on religious subject, should not meant to reach conclusion, but to see what other party beliefs, and reasons behind it, then let the readers to make their own individual conclusions.

3. Of course can.

That my opinion.

Actually, like I said previously on the other thread, these whole thing is started because some people are taking things too personally,  some people are not capable of engaging discussion in a civilized and mature way.

In civilized and mature discussion, we should be able to completely detach ourselves from the topic we are discussing.

Why is it necessary to be completely de-couple ourselves from the topic? Because it will help us to see the thing clearly, because it will help us to look at the argument based on the argument itself, not based on who is making the argument. When we start to look at who is making the argument, we will without fail making assumption of the intention of the person making the argument, which in turn will turn the discussion ugly.

Thanks to Icemoon for thanking people for trying to increase the rating?

Yes, I guess maybe Moses either think he can or he really can run faster than snake.

Originally posted by Chin Eng:

why do you say I am a catholic? I am not and not likely will be.

no one's born a catholic or christian.

you still have not apologized for your remarks. do that or prove that i am anti-catholic!

I apologize for the confusion, actually the second paragraph is for dumbdumb! but I didn't make it clear, although I know the remark is a bit overstretch .

I didn't say you or dumbdumb! anti-catolic, but I said you were taking a remark from a Catholic to the Protestant too personally, I didn't "attack" Protestant at all, it is just showing my understanding of the verses.

As for third paragraph, I was talking about dumbdumb! 90 percent of Catholic friends who don't live to their faith.

Again, sorry for the confusion

Originally posted by Chin Eng:

all the best.....

see? malcom, I am not anti-catholic.

at this point some other Christians will start to ask dumb2 to go for counselling

Now I see

Anyway I can understand if dumbdumb! not interested in Catholic teachings, However since you know a bit now the real teachings, nothing can stop you for being a good Catholic and remind your fellow brothers to take their faith more seriously.

Like what my priest once said, we may be born Catholic but at one point of time with the love of God, we may experience our own "conversion", and come back to follow Jesus.

Originally posted by dumbdumb!:

either that or the catholics will ask her for councilling.

which gives me a question. what happens if a catholic and a protestant marry. i heard that they can only marry if they promise to raise the kid in the catholic faith, or it won't be recognised by the catholic church.

and there's a friend in my church who is dating a catholic guy. and both of them are going to anglican side. is he gonna get excommunicated? and what does that mean?

Catholic Church allow its members to marry non Catholic with local Bishop approval, but both must agree to raise the children in Catholic faith.

Originally posted by 24/7:

 For me, therein lies the problem that in trying to advance her ecumenical agenda, the Roman Catholic Church has opened its arms so wide to embrace everyone that it might end up strangling itself.

SO, not here to add fire to ur discussion (debate?), but if u could point me somewhere.

The only agenda that the Catholic Church has is that it try to save all people, nothing else. Yes, the Church opens its arms so wide to embrace everyone, but it doesn't compromise on the faith, doctrines.

What happened is Catholic Church has tried very hard to embrace Protestans, with Vatican II, but there is no result so far, instead its loosing its traditional members like SSPX and other traditionals. If I am not wrong, in Vatican II, Protestant leaders are invited as an observer, and the current Pope in the council, was dressed informally, which I believe he is trying to make Catholic look less threatening.

And now it is trying to embrace back the traditionals.

Originally posted by Chin Eng:

you are totally confused, when did I say that the Matt 5 is NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. Please find my quotation if that exists.

I said that Matt is a parable and parables are not to be taken literally, I am sure even you know that there is a difference between taken seriously and taking literally.

However, you have said on May 22, 4.17 pm

If this be true, why isn't the world filled with half blind Catholics.... and don't go around saying Catholics are saintly in their behaviour.

I did't mean you as you Chin Eng, if you see most of my post I use 'we'. These whole things for me is not about self righteousness and telling people that all of you are sinners. We are all sinners. What I am trying to say here is, look, here is the bible passages, let's examine it together and see what it is trying to say using our ability in reasoning. But if you think that I am wrong, and insist that it is a parable, it is ok.

I always try to explan what Catholic Church stance on this, but I never say that we the Catholic people are better than Protestant. But surprisingly, both Chin Eng and dumbdumb! seems to take it personally and trying to prove that Protestants are more righteous than us Catholics. Why not leave the decision on who is more rightous, to our Father in Heaven? And let us concentrate on discovering what the God say in the bible and try our best to do it.

Originally posted by Chin Eng:

So in your opinion, is scripture perfect or divinely inspired?

so far, I don't think the issue is whether this or that is "error", but more on whether the context of any given verse is read correctly or not.

if it is agreed in Christendom that parables are parables, but an individual wishes to take a more literal approach, it is his prerogative to do so. Nonetheless it is really quite foolish to go along that line.

Regarding Mat 5:29-30, you may be tempted to think that it should not be taken seriously because Jesus ask us to tear out our eyes, but as MrLimKopi said, you miss the real message. The real message is that Jesus is trying to tell us it is very serious to sin, whether you are believer or non believer.
There is a story in the miracle by Padre Pio, I know you may not take Catholic saint seriously, but if you have open mind, find out the message behind this story from Pietruccio case and compare with Gemma Di Giorgi case, then you see that I mean.
There are Protestants who say the miracles in Catholic saint to be demonic, but as Jesus tell us, just look at the fruit.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Saints/padre-pio11c.htm

Originally posted by despondent:

malcolm, r u one of those catholics who believe tat wadever has been taught to u scripturally is inerrant n perfect??? if tats where u r coming from, then i dun tink the protestants inside here will be willing to listen…u see, protestants believe tat no church is perfect n no pastor, pope or priest can claim to have the 100% perfect doctrine of the entire bible…tats y sometimes we dun like to discuss doctrinal stuffs wif catholics cos they keep tinking onli they r rite…

Unless the scripture come directly from God then it is perfect, but it is written by human divinely inspired. But certain important things which sometime emphasize in other parts, should be considered correct. If we keep saying this and that is 'error', or 'cannot be used', or 'maybe error' then why would we use bible as the source of our faith?

The truth in bible most of the time can be revealed by human reasoning, put pieces together to understand the overall picture.

Originally posted by Chin Eng:

You assume that the "Many" in Matt 7:22 are believers? If they are believers how can Jesus not know them? Haven't you heard of cults, or people who incorporate Christianity into other religions?

Matt 5:29-30? You Opus Dei?

It not assume, it is hinted very obvious already, it is very simple to understand. If Jesus mean it is unbeliever, He would say something like "If you don't believe me , away from me evildoers".

What Jesus trying to tell us is, we may know Him and do all those things in His name, but if we don't do the will of my Father, I don't know you, go away.

You just need open your mind and use simple reasoning, don't let your imagination run wild :)

Originally posted by Chin Eng:

The context of Matt 7 - Matthew 7 is a series of extremely short messages - almost like a one liner -that started with Matthew 5.

The portion where Verse 21 is has got to do with false prophets, therefore the context of the verse is about the people at that time prophesizing in Jesus' name, and when read, it has to be read together with verses 22 and 23:

 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

If one is tempted to link this verse to normal folks, then I think we are in deep trouble because, the people mentioned inthis verses "prophesy in" Jesus name, and in Jesus' name "drive out demons and perform many miracles". None of us come close to that, and yet these folks are told that Jesus "never knew" them.

The chapters from 5 onwards carry a huge amount of analogies, one of which is:

29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

So do we take this literally? Obviously not!

so mrlim... is your salvation assured? based on your definition, none of our salvation is assured, because it all hinges in the good works that we've done, and who's to say it's enough?

or how about, I've spent the last month doing good work, and today I sinned, shortly later I die.... do I have salvation?

to paraphrase dumb2.... this kind of salvation plan - quite cocked up.

What Jesus means by "Many" in Mat 7:22 is us... the believers who know Him, who tell people about Him. It is us who believe in His name. It cannot be the unbelievers, why would the unbelievers do all those things in Jesus name, but yet Jesus called them evildoers, why? Because only he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

And for Matt 5:29-30, unfortunatelly, Jesus means it literally. I can back it up, but it is a Catholic thing, if you don't open your mind, you won't believe it.

Don't worry I m still alive.

We are probably way too timid when it comes to preaching as compare to our Protestant brothers and sisters. The reason might me that through out history the interpretation of the bible is only limited to religious leaders. As for info, to be a priest you need to spend around 10 years to learn about theology, in short most of us feel we are not qualified, and this leads to lack of understanding of our own faith among us. In the Church layman not suppose to even read the Gospel, only the OT, Acts and Letters, anything other than 4 Gospels.

Not even all Priest considered good preacher, there are certain religious orders are good or specialist at preaching, for example i think it is the Redeptionarist (of the Novena Church)

I won't say that prayer for the dead is weak, and it is not only to comfort the relative of the dead, but I can understand where you are coming from.

Originally posted by dumbdumb!:

and on a personal level?

doing all these is right. good works reflect Christ-love. but it's not complete. if you don't extend an invitation of faith, if you never even let them know that there is such an invitation, it isn't effective. but, what about yourself, on a personal level, what have you done?

On personal level, through my actions in school, works and family has brought few friends to the Catholic faith, but 1 of them crossed to the Protestant, perhaps we don't look 'on fire' like some of our Protestant brothers and sisters. Perhaps also we never measured by the number of people we convert.

We may look passive, but the faithfuls will always ready to offer help to others.

Originally posted by dumbdumb!:

then you will be kind enough to remain the coward and continue keeping your own views of salvation to yourself,

or, don't be the coward and share your views of salvation to your unbelieving neighbours.

 but don't tell me what i believe in is wrong, because it came from people who cared about God, and people who cared about me.

in another words, earn your right to preach.

We do evangelize, but not the way other Christians do. By spreading good works to others, example: go to hospitals to pray for the sick, to prisons etc. We are doing that in hope that unbeliever feel the love of God, and then eventually seek God through us, then that is when we tell others about Christ and our faith.

Through out the history, we built Catholic schools, hospitals, foundations but never ask them to join our faith, unless they are moved by our actions and actively seek the Truth.

Originally posted by dumbdumb!:

unfortunately, it wasn't the catholics who reached out to me and my family. for 16 years, it was never the catholics who pro-actively reached out to me. instead it was the christians. and what disgusted me was after getting trashing the christians for a good number of years for reaching out to me, and in turn, getting trashed by my parents for reaching out to them for 2 long years, before they were touched by God and received salvation

THEN the catholics appear out of no where in their groups, brought in by my catholic aunt, to try to bring us to the catholic faith. AFTER the hard work has been done, AFTER all the trashing was over, AFTER the percercution ended. they happily and dantily trotted into my house, and started telling us how great the catholic faith is, how many catholic churches there are compared to christian churches, how superior they are because christianity "started" from them etc.

sorry, but to say otherwise, would be hypocritical, but you all disgust me. and you'll have to forgive me for not taking your practices seriously.

Yeah, undestand, you need to forgive us also for being coward to declare Christ to our neighbours, even though He tells us to go and spread the Gospel to the world.

Originally posted by dumbdumb!:

lol. i get angry all the time. i murdered alot of ppl. i'm screwed.

there's a girl in my church.. she became a christian not long ago, and is due to be baptised next week, but she met with a bike accident, and died last sunday i'm going to the wake tonight. oh, she's going to hell, sucks that the salvation plan that God took thousands of years to come up with is so easily twarted by the devil.

lol, if the salvation plan is so easily torn apart, the devil wouldn't have spent so much effort in preventing the coming of the Christ, and God wouldn't take so long to strategise.

There is a section in the Mass that pray for the dead, there is also a dedicated day for the dead called All Souls Day.

Originally posted by Chin Eng:

aiyah.... Matt 7:18 was written in the context of false prophets.

murder is obviously quite far left on the classification of sins lah.

say, if you lied to someone - does that invalidate your salvation.... bearing in mind that in God, all sins are the same... because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"....

who can really keep his life totally holy 24/7.... gimme a break lah.

if nobody can keep his life holy 24/7, then we really have no assurance of salvation do we?

...basically, according to some, the assurance of salvation is to live a holy life 24/7... but we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God... salvation does not automatically make one do good... so sometimes we sin.... and all sins are the same.... so nobody goes to heaven....

heaven is a really empty place.

Exactly, Jesus know that it is impossible for us all to be holy all the time, that is why we have confession (sacrament of reconciliation), and weekly sacrifice (the Mass). And of course on our part we have to feel sorry for our sins and show the act of contrition.

Matt 7:

¹³ 'Enter by the narrow gate, since the road that leads to destruction is wide and spacious, and many take it;

¹⁴ but it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

And if we die on minor sins (non mortal sins), we go to purgatory, in due time eventually will go to Heaven.

Originally posted by Chin Eng:

is there a difference between "salvation" and "faith"?

to my totally unlearned mind:

Salvation - a specific point in time that one receives Jesus as Lord and saviour.

Faith - a mindset of belief based on the Bible to enable one to carry on living the way one is suppose to live in congruent to scriptural teachings. (definitions my own, so if I am wrong, don't call me a heretic)

 

So, can one have faith without works - I don't think so....

But can one have salvation without works - Yes, because salvation is unconditional with the exception of one's desire to be saved.

 

... i am not even sure if i am even following the trend of argument....

From Websters online dictionary:
Salvation:
(Christianity) the act of delivering from sin or saving from evil.

It means that your sins are forgiven, it happend during baptism, so if you die on the spot after complete baptism, you will be saved from Hell, go straight to Heaven.

Suppose you kill someone after your baptism, then you die, where will you go? Straight to Hell.

Conclusion:
Do you need good work to attain salvation? When you received Jesus, you don't need to do any work to attain salvation.
Will you stay saved until the last day after you receive Jesus? No unless you keep your life holy.