Carcinogenic materials found in 2 additional F-16I fighter jets By Yuval Azoulay,

Haaretz Correspondent

Carcinogenic materials have been found in two additional F-16I Sufa ("Storm") fighter jets, a little over a week after IAF Commander Eliezer Shkedy ordered all F-16I jets grounded after the same material was found in the cockpit of two F-16Is.

The material was identified as formaldehyde, which has been proven to cause cancer in high levels of exposure. The IAF is currently awaiting the results of tests on an additional 10 jets and has still not determined how the material made its way into the jets.

After the substance was first discovered, Shkedi arranged for all F-16I pilots to meet with the head of the IAF medical department, who explained to them the health ramifications of the substance.

F16I pilots have been complaining of irritations of mucous membranes and throat for three years, but recently, the complaints rose dramatically. Most of the complaints were lodged by pilots serving at an IAF base in southern Israel.

The IAF said that the earlier complaints were investigated, but nothing was ever found.

Since the discovery of the substance in the cockpit of one of the fighter jets, four pilots have been tested, but only one tested positive for exposure.

According to the officer, the substance could cause throat cancer, but stressed that the likelihood of cancer is about 1 to 100,000. "In any case, this kind of cancer could erupt up to 15 years after the initial exposure," he said.

A contingent of IAF officials is currently performing examinations of the Lockheed Martin assembly plant in Fort Worth, Texas where the F-16I is built, in order to determine the source of the material.

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Not a physical issue which affects the plane or its ability to carry out its mission imo. But still, it is only right that they check the source of the contamination. IMO, nothing they can`t fix or seal the affected areas.

The RMAF made a bold attempt to mix western avionic with Russian jet.Though it sound silly, it shows their flexibility in defence thinking.To say that using 'rojak' system will create problem sound way to simplistic. If it is implemented right it will turn out right.

It is not a bold attempt to try anything ingenius. They were prevented access to a lot of things on the F18s. They had no choice. As for their `rojak' system, it is a mess. Their skyhawks are rotting in the hot sun. They were undecided about the Migs. However, it is an indication as per how costly maintainence is when they decided to have them mothballed. They changed thier minds a couple of times about the Migs too. Now, they will use the Migs till 2010. Splendid waste of money. It is very very telling  about thier logistical support when brand new Hawks are crashing. The accident record of the old Nuris is self-explanatory but even the RSAF were using old second hand Hueys. However, it is appalling that they persist in using them; relying on cozy relationships with inefficient bumi companies. And all of these happened during peace-time deployments. 

Two things can be deduced here;

1) Some of thier systems are really old

2) Simply bad logistical support and possibly bad training as well

Any other air force in the region having the same problems?

so the training were halted.....but the plane used for the training were not grounded.....DAMN ...a UCAV F16!...lol

It means the planes will still be used for operations when needed. F16Is are used for both training and operations. Especially when you can get more contamination smoking a cig or by standing next to a smoking smoker or on polluted street in Malaysia. Use your brain.

Not grounded. But training halted. Different meaning. Anyway, it is just a safety precaution. The leak was just in one cockpit and very small. It was a small incident. You can breath in the same substance from combustion exhaust from your cars. Smoking cigarettes is more dangerous imho.

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No one signs up to become a fighter pilot thinking that the job will be risk-free, the Lede surmises. You’ll be expected to do difficult and daring things with a high-performance aircraft bristling with weapons, and then there’s the whole business of enemies trying their best to blow you out of the sky should hostilities break out, the eventuality of which is, after all, why there are fighter pilots to begin with.

But cancer?

Word this morning from Israel is that they’ve halted all training flights by the country’s fleet of F-16I jets — a variant of the familiar American F-16 built especially for them by Lockheed Martin — because of a carcinogen in the cockpit.

The offending stuff is formaldehyde, which is perhaps most familiar as a preservative for biology-class frog and fetal-pig specimens. Formaldehyde has many industrial uses, and its fumes are given off by a host of synthetic materials, including certain plastics, resins and glues; foam insulation is a frequent culprit. The fumes are also found in combustion exhaust. In small unventilated spaces like a closed room or a jet cockpit, the fumes can accumulate to harmful levels.

The United States Environmental Protection Agency says that inhaling formaldehyde is associated with an increased risk of cancer in the linings of your nose, throat and lungs, among other things (ingesting the stuff isn’t a great idea either). Put enough formaldehyde in the air around you, and your eyes probably will start to water and your throat may burn.

Israel has a lot riding on the F-16I. The initial $2.5 billion order it placed with Lockheed Martin for at least 50 of the jets in 1999 was the biggest arms order in the country’s history and drew wide criticism; Israel has since ordered more. The first batch delivered in 2004 drew complaints over radar problems. Even so, the F-16I is the leading weapon of the Israeli Air Force, and the air force has been the crucial element in Israel’s military superiority over its neighbors in war after war.

The decision to halt training flights — not, notably, to ground the planes entirely — was prompted by tests that found formaldehyde in just one of the planes, Haaretz reports. And truth to tell, any Israeli fighter pilot who smokes cigarettes may be exposed to a lot more formaldehyde than by sitting in the cockpit. But the Israeli Defense Forces took action anyway, no doubt figuring that the unavoidable risks of Top-Gunnery are great enough without adding any avoidable ones.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/in-israel-a-health-threat-in-a-fighter-jet/index.html?ex=1206763200&en=cfae1b13664a8593&ei=5123&partner=BREITBART

I wonder why something like this got out into the press ..  Shouldn't we just keep things like this under wraps?

Maybe because we have something better already ;)

so are you saying their air force were a bunch of monkey with wrench?

Get used to your Zoo. Better term.  

The worse thing is, they can't get the Israelis to integrate all the electronics for them like the Indians did. I wonder if they are going to try to integrate the electronics by themselves?

The Indians are very close to the Israelis and us. The Indians have had a long list of issues with the Sukhois. Took them some time to work things out. They(RMAF) would not even have the competency to do it themselves. Otherwise, they would have done it a long time ago with thier Migs. They have issues with technical competency and money. As it stands, thier Hornets cannot even fire Amraams after being allowed to buy 20 of them. New combat/training jets like Hawks are falling from the skies together with old nuris and they would have the gall to trust thier own handiwork at improvising things? Balls.. i tell you. Of course, we should always stay vigilant.

Posting here is very irritating as I could have written a lot but the post does`nt come out at all when i click `save reply.'

Also, Skye2: We evaluate systems, not individual aircraft. the MKI/MKM may infact be a better aircraft that we rejected simply because it can't fire the missiles we have, communicate with our AWACs, or refuel from our tankers. Nothing to do with the superiority of the fighter. In fact, I'm pretty sure that in ideal situations, 1 on 1, the MKM will win over the F-15 most of the time.

We evaluate aircrafts holistically. But we also ensure that the combat jets perform as well in the key parameters. And that means winning against competing combat jets in the region; with and without AWAC support. So I disagree with your statement on the su-30 winning against the F15s. The F15SG is simply the better aircraft. 

The purpose of the NGF competition is to compare competing aircrafts' specifications(especially key specifications)and squeeze every penny out of the vendors so that we get the best deals. The fact that the Su-30 did not even get short-listed in the top 3 says a lot. It simply failed to compare favaourably with the Rafale, typhoon and the F15SG.

We would not have short-listed the Rafale if we were not prepared to accept a different logistical line of weapons. As a matter of fact, a lot of American weaponry are not cleared for usage by the Rafale.

To the vendors, it is about getting short-listed by a world class discerning air force. It is not just about the number of combat jets Singapore is about to purchase. The initial purchase was for a small number of just 12 aircrafts anyway. Hardly huge. The Sukhois simply failed to make the grade.

Every other country which could afford a good Western jet has gone Western. Practically every other country which could not afford to get a good Western jet has gone Russian. Who should know better? The Russians know very well that they could not compete against Western equivalent jets in thier full glory which is why they are even willing to accept barter trade in commodities or even loan money to countries to buy thier products. How silly does it get?

Russian jets are over-rated. This is shown by the kill-ratios thay have suffered over the years and the never ending logistical issues plagueing the Russian air force and other users of Russian goods.

First of all, they`ll need to make sure all theier systems from around the world work together. I can`t remember the countries involved; too many; lol. Maintainence will be nightmarish for an air-force with a gamut of logistical issues. As a point of reference, the Indians took 7 years to fix the MKI. And they were merging Israeli and Russian systems. The Indians also discovered that Russian production lines have poor quality control and their equipment are not what the Russians claim to be.

Maintainence is gonna be hell though.

Of course.  It will end up like the Migs. They never learn. Logistical issues and problems across the board.

We evaluated them. We kicked them out of the NGF program. They were not even in the last 3.

as thier overheads and running costs increase, they will reduce thier overall manpower strength.

Thai(according to thai forumners) also using SAR-21 what...indons as well.

oh.This thread shall be closed and migrated to Speaker Corner.Sorry.

drM owns siah

the only thing he owns is a big nose. he doesn`t have credibility in international politics....Was snubbed by his own party several times.... Was ineffective in getting his way internationally.....modest successes domestically.. ...corruption  and inefficiency reigned unchecked under him and poor badawi had to shoulder the damage. it`s good he`s no longer pm.

democracy...damned if you do, damned if you don't~

Lol. true. Anyway, my point is that the act or exercise of electing a new party through a democratic process does not necessarily mean that civil liberties at the end of the day is adhered. In fact, it may go the other way in that people have a lot more restrictions. At the end of the day, what matters is really what happens on the ground; the daily lives of people in general.

btw, not feeling restrictive is not the same as `no restrictions' as you implied. pls be clear about it.

And just because they never say it, does`nt mean it is`nt there. pls be clear about that. What happened to the free world?

We should also bear in mind the sufferings of moderate muslims who would not want to have anything to do with the ancient laws enacted several centuries ago when they know for a fact that thier religion at heart is a progressive one. Ask  muslims in singapore if they like hudud laws? But thier cries are drowned by the great clarion call for greater conservatism led by PAS and thier running dogs.

not spieling about democracy here....

can singapore gamble in the open? can u sell pork in singapore without approval or permit?

is hudud law applicable to non-muslims?

Not at all. Just being helpful on clearing up issues on theory and reality.

Chinese new year. Go around. See how many people are playing mahjong. Can you do that in the open in Kelantan?

Oh, maybe i did`nt explain clearly. The sale of pork is under strict control with unofficial quotas set by the Kelantan government. Same goes with alcohol.

I am not clear on the extent of the applicability of such laws. But I am aware of a few. Here`s some examples;

Proselytizing of Muslims by members of other religions is not technically prohibited by federal law. It is however prohibited in Kelantan and can lead to lengthy jail sentences and many strokes of the rotan (whipping). Most Christian and a few other religious groups in Malaysia put a standard disclaimer on literature and advertisements stating "For non-Muslims only".

Shari'ah law counts the evidence of non-Muslims and women as worth only half that of Muslim men in legal courts, in some cases discounting their testimonies altogether.  Particularly controversial is Section 9 (2) of a recent Shari'ah Bill proposed by PAS which requires a female rape victim to provide four male Muslim witnesses to ensure a conviction.  The victim could face 80 lashes for making slanderous allegations if her case cannot be proved, and if she is found to be pregnant she may even be charged with adultery, a crime punishable by stoning to death according to the Shari'ah.

I have already given you the example on the different queues for male and females at shopping centres. Again, no affect on non muslims?

i have chinese relatives living in kelantan for years and never once have i heard that they felt restrictive. i don't think that there is a shortage of pork in where they live that they are complaining as well.

I have been to kelantan as well. Are you sure? How many shops can sell alcohol? Can you gamble in the open? Can you operate night-clubs? Can you hold concerts freely? Surely, you have been shopping. Can your wife queue with you in a single queue? As for the pork, who do you need to see to get approval? why is that even necessary in the first place? no restrictions?

The hudud laws are not favoured by moderate muslims. In fact, many shun them. It has already been reported in the newspapers that Malay singaporean couples have been hauled up for questioning for holding hands in Kelantan. An arm lost for stealing an apple? Fair? Democratic?  Moral?  Spare me your drivel about democracy.

I hope that the time of political thuggery in Malaysia is over.

I believe that the top leaders of UMNO do not condone violence. But as in all political hierarchy, the lower levels are unpredictable.

Hardly the case. Malaysia has entered a new phase of uncertainty with race, religion, etc as the main issues of the day. You will see it in all its colours. Who will win at the end of the day? The majority Malays of course. The constituents who voted in the Opposition would have to live with thier decisions for the next 4-5 years. BN`s machinery, in particular,  will start humming soon to feed the anti-malay hysteria among Malay and non-malay voters. At the end of the day, it will always be about race and religion in Malaysia. Malaysian Malays will never let go of political power. It is thier single biggest greatest fear. The recent election results are just slap on the wrist of UMNO to do more for the Malays and face up to the recent issues affecting Malaysia.

i sincerely do not think PAS will implement it in 1 broad sweep. they know better if they want to be in power for the long run.

even in kelantan, i doubt it. it may have elements of it, but it will not be a full blown one.

though one form the state government, it is not a free reign.

i think you are either over-reacting or you want to get into a one/lop-sided discussion on this (which I will not partake henceforth).

But they will. One needs to look at Kelantan. Different queues for men and women. No gambling dens. Restrictions on alcohol comsumption, sale of non-halal food, pork, etc. In some parts of Selangor, you already have religious police on patrol. An idea germinated by the Malay constituents. This is hardly an over-reaction. These are things which have happened. So much for democracy.

PAS would have no qualms installing such policies over time as thier main constituents are malays; malays in the belt states who are very much attuned with conservative Islam. Pity the non-muslims to leave under such restrictions.

To the contrary, it is you who are under-reacting. Too much poo about idealist concepts is very misleading and a far cry from the reality on the ground.

Just a question, anyone of you still have the idea of reuniting with Malaysia again after seeing so many existing and potential dangers?

Do you want Singapore to to be ruled by a turban wearing mullah?  answer your question did i?

In politics there is always danger.

Surrounded by enemies, one wrong move and you will be wiped out.

Singapore also no difference, just different tactics.

Here is lawsuits and bankruptcy and ISD.

I`d like to add to that. It is the case everywhere. The tactics differ. In America, you can have the popular vote(the most number of votes) and yet still not become president.

Thanks 23! The other reason on why we ought to be buy a quasi tactical trainer/combat jet is strategic(pardon me). Our northern neighbour will be deprived of buying a cheap but good point defence fighter.

Frankly, i pity non-muslims in places like Kedah, Kelantan, etc. Get ready for muslim hudud laws. Remember not to hold your spouse`s hands in case the religious police comes along. That`s democracy for you.

No, Malaysia isn't any more democratic or freer than us. It is that the people are so fed up with the govt that they just want to vote it out.

That is true. Add the blatant corruption, incompetence, the NEP,etc which exists at all levels of governance. How democratic, free and how moral it is but a personal point of view. Let`s be frank. An example is the NEP. The NEP will never be abolished in the near and long term. Do that and you`ll lose the malay votes. PAS will not do it. Keadilan will not do it. And DAP does`nt have the credibility being a mainly chinese based party.

IMO, the election results have got nothing to do with the shallow ideals of democracy than the simple fact that the people are fed up with the myriad of problems which have been cropping up; inflation, Hinduraf, corruption,etc . 4-5years is not enough for the BA to do anything substantial. Ba will most likely lose these states just like it lost Terrenganu in the last election. Bn just needs to up the ante with respect to domestic incentives.

The folks from BA do not have the credentials the Bn folks have with respect to governance and are no less corrupted, extreme, etc. They`ve been there and they have played the game of the day. For example, this year it was Hishammudin who was waving the keris. Who was the most extreme about Malay rights just one and half decade ago? Answer: Anwar Ibrahim. Even Mad-hatter was concerned in bringing in a fireband. Look at him now. Oh, how soon people forget.

Really, it`s all yawn to me. Same racial and restrictive politics but different faces. Who is freer? Who is`nt? Comparing Singapore to Malaysia is like comparing apples to oranges. At the end of the day, it comes down to people, leaders and capability. You have that, you`ll do well.

Guy on the right

credit: skyman(thai dude)

lazy to post. go here for more pictures;

http://www.network54.com/Forum/242808/thread/1205007351/last-1205022696/Royal+Thai+Army+New+Digital+Camo+%26amp%3B+TAR-21+Tavor+in+Service