Thanks for the nice sharing.

Just want to share my personal experience. Not definitive.

It may take a few years for the 'dropping away of pull/push' to become automatic.

The 'let go/dropping' practice in the beginning is really a 'push' effort.

True release is automatic without the 'willing' effort. It will come by itself... if the earlier practice is correct.

When the real release/liberation occur, one will know... as it is a kind of rest and joy that is different from the 'normal desire/grasping state'.

Don't get discouraged when results are not experienced at first. It will come. The 'result' cannot be speed up.... the subsconsious mind needs time (years) to 're-orientate' itself.

Originally posted by Maggie.meepok:

 

Even Jesus has said: "The kingdom of God of cometh not with outward show; neither shall they say, Lo here! or, Lo there! for behold, The kingdom of God is within you."

So, it seems that Jesus also said that heaven is not an external place but a state of being.

 

 

Hi Maggie.meepok,

Yes, that is what I am trying to convey.

This 'Kingdom of God' is not a place elsewhere in the universe. It is a state of Being that can be experienced here and now.

It has been miscontrued by people who did not have the direct experience, giving rise to all kinds of horrendous misinterpretations that creates much unnecessarily sufferings.

Originally posted by Maggie.meepok:

Certainly I do not think Christianity deliberately promotes cults. But interestingly, many cults have some basis in traditional religions. For instance, the Ku Klux clan in which advocated white supremacy was strongly influenced by fundamental Christian ideas. Then there is also the Branch Dravidians (the infamous Waco case in USA) where more than 80 people commited suicide at the instruction of their leader David Koresh. It also has its roots in pseudo-Christians ideas.

The core of Christianity promotes peace and love but some people choose to interpret the bible according to their own purposes. They also do not consider the old testament is an ancient people's subjective understanding of their experience of God so when they win a war they believe that God is on their side.  I do not believe in such a naive and literal reading of the bible.

What is boils down to is that many religions, especially the monotheistic ones (single god religions) tends to appeal strongly to faith and emotions, unlike Buddhism which to me (a Christian) seems more logical and rational. Thus, the faithful in monotheistic religions are more open to the dangers of charismatic leaders while Buddhists have been taught by Buddha to question even the teachings of your teachers to see if they make sense before acceptance.

Monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam (they all come from the same roots) have a historical record of violence not just in the form of cults but also against each other and against others. Some exampls from the Christian tradition are the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisitions and the Salem witch hunts in USA all condoned by the religions establishments of their day. Here a site on Christian terrorism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

Strangely, when I google "Buddhist terrorism" there is almost nothing much, except that all the sites point the Buddhism is against terrorism. I am sure there are some errant monks or abbotts throughout history who have used violence for his own political ends. But it is likely to be more on an individual basis rather than the mass actions that we have historically seen among those who claim to be Christians and Muslims. Maybe someone can enlighten me if there is anything on this scale in Buddhist history. It seems as a whole, there is no major war fought in the name of Buddha, haha.

So why am I, a Christian, saying all these things seemingly against my own religion and still remain a Christian?

Because I feel that fundamental Christians have missed the point of the Jesus' key message. Because I feel that fundamental Christianity has a very aggressive streak. Because I feel that many Christians are not objective enough for fear of criticising God. Because I feel many fundamental Christian elements and wrong beliefs have entered mainstream Christianity.

Jesus' message of love has been hijacked.

Hi Maggie.meepok,

Buddhism is very profound. Along the spiritual path, one will also be able to understand what is the nature of 'God' and its 'relationship' to the apparent physical world that we are living in.

Strangely, our consciousness and beingness are not what it appears to be

Can God separate itself from its creations? If that is possible, then Space will be before God... because for any separation to occur... space must be present to apply distance and differences in location. If that is the case, Space will be the creator of God. Can you see the dichotomy?

Buddhism is profound in that the very assumption of your own existence is throroughly investigated and explored.

I hope that i am not being too hard-selling here. Just wish that you can give this area an investigative relook. Not easy and quite fearful for one to break away from the comfort zone.

regards

Yes, something like that..

Just a sharing...

The most important practice is to learn to drop and 'let go' correctly.

Don't analyse so much... these analysis are all concepts. Dive in without any care!

We will need to 'open up' into the spacious luminosity that have no conceptual thoughts. Here you may notice that you are no longer seeing through the 'physical eye vision'.

If got concept OK... no concept also Ok. Just don't use the will to modify.

Originally posted by Thusness:

I think the article is very well written. Just a sharing of my opinion:

 

Hi Thusness,

Thanks for the sharing :)

Ha ha.... very funny. But very true too. Unborn Reality cannot be described in words and concepts.

Thanks for the sharing.

Originally posted by Isis:

yes i kind of get it..

Thanks for the reminder

 

welcome :)

Originally posted by rokkie:

check this part out,quite related to your post

现在佛教内部流行一个趋势，就是强调实修而贬低理论，好像只要谁重视理论就说明他没有修行似的。持这观点的人其实是既不懂理论又不懂修行。佛教的经典 看似浩如烟海，可是都是教人如何修行。这就好象一个人要爬山游览，如果仅把地图研究了一遍就觉得够了，不用爬山了，实际上一路风光一点也没见到，这样的纸 上谈兵固然是不可取的，但是，若走另一个极端，不看地图就匆匆上路，费劲不说，要是走上叉路，甚至误入险途，岂不冤枉！两全其美的办法，先仔细看了地图， 再揣着地图上路，因为仅靠看地图的初期印象毕竟还是模糊，带着地图，边走边印证，越走越明了，登至顶峰，扔掉地图，众山一览，岂不美哉！

我们凡夫的错误执着根深蒂固，心性又顽劣，如果不能首先说服自己，不能深切地认同佛教的世界观、人生观，就不可能落实到修行实践上。缺乏明晰的理论思 维，仅靠体验或是情感的信，认识肯定很模糊，信心就不会坚定，稍遇挫折就会动摇，难怪竟然有一些佛弟子跟着法轮功跑了。信佛不是相信佛的法力无边、有求必 应，而是相信佛所说的道理就是真理。唯识佛法是硬道理，看似艰深，解决的全是硬碰硬的问题，是把我们思想上的疙瘩全结开，以求坚定地踏上修习之路。

佛教的中心，就是“无我”。 可以说，这个“我”是万恶之源，所有的恶行都是为了这个莫须有的东西而犯下的，为此还得受报应，你说冤不冤！另一方面，但凡善的事情又都和“无我”有点关 系，大公无私，舍己为人……忘我也可以说是浅层次的无我，这些世间提倡的品德，都可以说是无我的一种表现，如果真地按照佛陀指给的方法去体悟无我，价值是 不可估量的！所以，讲唯识也好，三性也好，看似很复杂，都是为了让人们打心眼里认识到无我，能真正以“无我”来看待一切事物，以“无我”的方针指导我们的行为乃至起心动念，这不是钻故纸堆的学术研究，而是我们每时每刻所要面对的修行！

唯识学 的修习实践内容深广，这里简单谈一点止观的关系。佛教修行的主要内容，就是对治颠倒的我见，其方法就是通过止和观。止就是摄心专注不散，观就是体察法义， 以智慧观照万事万物,对治颠倒虚妄。止和观是互相增上的，认真地学习和思维无我的道理，以此正见观照世间诸法本来虚妄，才能做到心不攀缘，止息了散乱心， 又能更好地体悟法义，照见诸法的真实面目，这就是止观双运。单就“止”来说，并不是佛教所独有的，许多外道的修行方法都可以获得相当的定力，而无我的观修 方法却是佛教所独倡的。如此勤修止观，反复对治错误执着，一步步接近真实，若突破仅从思维上理解 “无我”，而能从整个身心上实证无我，亲见真实，便是至“见道位”，也就是成为了登地菩萨，至此便是踏上了觉悟之路。

理论 is just a process... but it doesn't directly point to and touch Ultimate Reality. If we treat it so importantly before we had a chance to get the first glimpse of Reality, it will bind us like a spell. Yes, the conceptual realm is like a spell. However, if you have never got out of it, you won't know that it is a spell.

If you live in water the day you were born, you will never know how it feels like to live in the air. You may never even know that water or air exist.

Ultimate reality is beyond the realm of 理论 or concepts. 理论 is on the 'human' conceptual realm. When mind is non-conceptual, it can't be attached to 理论. 理论 is just a concept. Of course, one still have to keep to the precepts to prevent incurring additional negative karma.

In fact, keeping to the precepts is very important at the later stage. This is because the negative karmic consequence will come very fast. I have quite a few bad experiences to know that this is true. I think Thusness also mentioned about this too.

It depends on what is the person's goal...

1. just to find out things due to curiosity or test water or

2. going for liberation

Also, nothing is really lost. This is really an insight. All the memories are 'still there'... Because all the memories are still there and are not controlled by the 'I' or 'self', we don't have to be afraid that if when do not exercise thinking and 理论, they will be gone or we will become more stupid. LOL. No, non-conceptuality and the practice will not make us less intelligent.

Concepts don't liberate us. On the contrary, they block us from directly experiencing the deep rest of mind aka bliss. The cessation of perception doesn't mean that one's memories and intelligence are wipe out. If that is true, arhats will become stupid upon their enlightenment. What really happened is the 'deregistration of conceptualization'.

Just my opinion only.

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

BTW the Chinese article looks interesting, but only read the first part yet.

Maybe Thusness and Longchen would like to give some comments?

I read Chinese very slowly... i also only read the first part. LOL.

Yah, i think it is quite good.

Just an opinion. All these words that are seen are just concepts. Later on on the path, we cannot bring these concepts together with the practice.

These words/teachings are like.... you go for a briefing (OPs order.. ha..ha), but for the actual practice (battle/fire fight...ha ha), you cannot use them anymore. For the actual practice, these concepts have to be dropped and discarded.

If during the actual battle, we keep referring to the instruction manual and worded teaching, we WILL lose the battle.

It is fear and desire that keep pulling us back into conceptual grasping. This part very important! Keep referring back to the memories of the worded teachings is habitual and is a lack of confidence.

The actual practice needs a lot of courage and may be seen as anti-social by people who isn't in that state. For example, see someone must talk, also is a kind of grasping. You see... the actual practice needs a lot of sacrifice.

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Ah yes, I notice my mind is still very active if some sort of experience comes, it gets excited and wants to label it... or if it encounters an experience never experienced before, it too wants to search for an answer though it is beyond the mind's grasp. The mind is fearful of the unknown, the illusion just doesn't want to die.. LOL. Everything has to be explained, from trees to sky to non-duality. Quite silly but it's like some sort of karmic propensity.

'Fearful of the unknown' is a deep karmic propensity that all of us have. Lots of courage is required to just 'don't know'.

Conceptualization is just the 'first half' of understanding... it never really touch reality directly.... because they are 'personal' mental impressions.

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Regarding "Even the initial insights that we have about non-duality and other stuffs, are also presented as mental concepts."

Thusness told me my (initial) non-dual experiences (though different from realising the nature of reality as non-dual) were the result of summarising what I have learnt... and that when the mind is searching for an answer it subconsciously stumbles onto the non-dual experience, if I get what he is saying. It's like the mind has the answer subconsciously (through learning of dharma knowledge) even though it is not known in conscious awareness. That is why he told me to continue summarising, and of cos to continue practicing hard so that we can go beyond the conceptual understanding into direct experience.

mmm.... may not be the same.

IMO,

The way our mind work is that when even in non-dual.. there will be a mental narrative that accompany that experience, that will say ' this is non-dual... blah..blah'. These accompanying mental narrative is conceptualization and thus has no connection to reality.

The same goes for all our experiences... the mental conceptualization accompanies sensory perception and start to do story-telling. This story-telling is devoid of reality and is addictive. Once the story-telling is recognised 'intuitively', they can lose their conditioning power....

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Hi, does this part from the first article describe what you're going through?

 

 How Voidness Is Known

There are two levels of voidness (stong-pa-nyid, Skt. shunyata, emptiness):

1. voidness that is a conceptual construct,
2. voidness that is beyond conceptual constructs.
   

Voidness, as an absolute absence (med-dgag, nonimplicative negation) of true existence as “this” or “that,” is the conceptual construct or abstraction “there is no such thing as truly existent ‘this’s and ‘that’s.” It can only be known conceptually and is that to which the word or concept “voidness” refers.

Cognizing this level of voidness is a necessary stepping-stone to cognizing definitive voidness, which is beyond all conceptual categories and beyond all words. Although voidness can be referred to by a conceptual construct or word, voidness that is beyond conceptual constructs (definitive voidness) does not correspond to anything a word or concept would correspond to, namely something existing in the fixed box or category of “voidness.”

Thus, the two levels of voidness are not contradictory. It is not that voidness “beyond” is a transcendental level in the sense of being beyond the limits of all possible experience and knowledge, and only accessed through a mystical experience, perhaps gained by the grace of God. It merely means that it is beyond the limits of what conceptual cognition and nonconceptual sensory and mental cognition can cognize.

Voidness as a conceptual construct can only be cognized conceptually. We cognize it conceptually by our mental consciousness giving rise to a mental aspect resembling an empty or blank space, and superimposing or projecting onto it the audio and meaning categories “voidness.” This does not mean, however, that when conceptually focusing on voidness, we necessarily also must have a mental aspect resembling the sound of the vowels and consonants of the word “voidness.” The conceptual cognition of voidness may be nonverbal. Nevertheless, since the mental representations (the conceptual categories) that appear in conceptual cognition are necessarily appearances of true existence, the empty or blank space appears to be a voidness that truly exists in the concrete category “voidness.” The meaning category associated with it, however, is the correct meaning of voidness – namely, the absolute absence of true existence.

Voidness that is beyond concepts can only be cognized nonconceptually, but it cannot be cognized by nonconceptual mental cognition. Nonconceptual mental cognition produces a mental aspect of something not truly existing as a “this” or a “that.” However, voidness that is beyond concepts is beyond all four extremes:

1. truly existing as a “this” or a “that,”
2. not truly existing as a “this” or a “that,”
3. both truly and not truly existing as a “this” or a “that,”
4. neither truly nor non-truly existing as a “this” or a “that.”
   

Therefore, voidness that is beyond concepts does not cognitively appear as a mental aspect of an empty or blank space that appears to be a voidness in the category of a non-truly existent “ voidness.” 

[See: Affirmations, Negations, and Denumerable and Nondenumerable Ultimate Phenomena.]

Only Clear Light Mental Activity Can Cognize Voidness beyond Concepts

Only clear light mental activity can have nonconceptual cognition of voidness beyond concepts, and when it does, it has nonconceptual cognition of the two truths (bden-gnyis) simultaneously.

In this context, the two truths are:

• voidness beyond concepts,
• pure appearances (dag-pa’i snang-ba) – appearances that are beyond impure appearances (ma-dag-pa’i snang-ba).
  

Impure appearances include:

1. appearances of truly existent “this”s and “that”s,
2. appearances of sensibilia, such as momentary collections of patchs of colored shapes, that are not truly existent as “this”s and “that”s.

[See: Divisions, Causes, and Elimination of Unpurified Appearance-Making According to Non-Gelug.]

Cognition of impure appearances resembles “periscope vision,” with which we view reality through a limited perspective, as if through a periscope. We see only what is in front of our noses, seemingly separated and isolated from the state beyond the seemingly solid categories of words and concepts.

Clear light cognition, on the other hand, produces and cognizes appearances of what are beyond truly and non-truly existent “this”s and “that”s. That does not mean, however, that with clear light cognition, everything becomes an undifferentiated oneness. Objects retain their conventional identities. Moreover, clear light mental activity produces and cognizes appearances both of all phenomena and of itself, for instance as a Buddha-figure. Simultaneously, it also cognizes the voidness of them that is beyond words and concepts.

Clear light cognition, however, may be divided into two:

1. clear light that does not know that the two truths it cognizes are true,
2. clear light that knows that they are true.

The first part, yes.

However, i don't think i am at full clear light cognition yet.

Basically, at this stage, more of the mental conceptualization can be 'clearly seen'. This allows the movement beyond the “periscope vision,” which is how things are seem when in dualistic mode.

Here, one can see how 'recognizing' mental concepts and releasing them creates a sense of freedom and liberation.

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

The conceptual categories that conceptual cognition fabricates are cognitive representations snang-ba, mental appearances) not only of what things are (words, meanings, wholes, continuums, objects, kinds of things, and so on), but also of things truly existing in that way. Truly existing (bden-par grub-pa), here, means really existing in that way, independently of imputation.

 

I guess this is why concepts have a spell-like effect on most of us...

IMO,

The way that the articles are being written is very precise and systematic.

Certainly the works of accomplished teachers.

Welcome...

Just a sharing.

I am beginning to move more into 'non-conceptuality'..

My experience is that the more concepts and beliefs that we have accumulated the more confusing this stage is.

Those of us who like to 'collect' all kinds of spiritual informations will have a very hard time here. The arising of the memories of these informations will cause the mind to grasp onto them for verification and validation. In the process, one will discover that all these informations are just mental words or imageries ... with no reality at all. But nevertheless, the clinging bond (of semantics and meaning) to these spiritual informations will make 'letting go' of the desire hard and fearful.

Even the initial insights that we have about non-duality and other stuffs, are also presented as mental concepts. At this stage, the mental narrative of these insights will have to be 'recognised' as mental concepts also and be allowed to 'liberate'. In another word, the insights themselves were accompanied by 'conceptual wordings'. These conceptual wordings must also be recognised and released.

IMO...

Don't think of karma as punishment. It is not. It may be a bad experience, but it is not punishment.

Keep to the precepts... they are meant to prevent 'accumulating' more negative karma.

The karmic consequence of past action... just experience them and learn not to repeat the same pattern again.

Learn to drop away the desire to do certain things in a reactive manner. This reactive habit of responding to certain situation itself is the karmic pattern.

If we accumulate too much concepts, at a later stage on the path, these concepts becomes obstacles.

These are very good articles on types of mental activities and meditation from Dzogchen perspective.

1. Recognizing Different Levels of Mental Activity and Appearance-Making

2. The Steps of Dzogchen Meditation

Please don't be too quick to dismiss the articles. They are really exceptually well-written.

regards

Very nice...Thanks.

Hi Moderator,

Please delete this thread if it is not appropriate. Thanks.

----------------

Dear all,

On May 1st of this year, Deborah Jean Palfrey, also known as the "Washington DC Madam" was found dead at the home of her mother in Tarpon Springs, Florida.

Derestanne (aka astral333), is a friend of mine, has been contacted by Deborah (aka "Washington DC Madam") after her physical death.

The situation went like this:

2 weeks after her death,  Deborah Jean Palfrey contacted Derestanne.

Deborah Jean was very persistent, visiting Derestanne daily and engaging him in lengthy (and intelligent) conversations. Finally, he asked her why she chose to contact him. Deborah explained that she was attempting to understand her disposition and her destiny in the Afterlife - and Derestanne's name came to her awareness. She knew that she was to contact him and that the both of them have important things to do together.

For the past subsequent weeks, Deborah and Derestanne became friends and were quite comfortable in one-another's company. He found her to be very intelligent, compassionate and even spiritual!

Derestanne (aka astral333) is helping Deborah to write a Channeled "tell all" Book! The DC Madam Speaks From Beyond The Grave!

Derestanne and I had a discussion. I agreed (gladly) to let him use my forum as a platform for posting materials with regards to Deborah (aka "Washington DC Madam") in the afterlife.

Basically, Washington DC Madam want to talk about the things that are important in life and how are things like after death (for her).

Here's the thread on my forum

http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=transformation&action=display&thread=1216

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

 

Furthermore, he is told to awaken to the fact that all these fearsome creatures are not real, but are merely illusions emanating from his own mind. If he can recognize this, they will vanish and he will be liberated. If he can't, he eventually wanders down to the third bardo.

 

I had a lucid nightmare yesterday.

Was in this room, and suddenly a strong bout of fear came into me, and I had feeling that a monster or a ghost is going to come out of the alley. True enough, a tall fearsome shadowy figure came out of the alley and towards me, and my fear intensify even further.

But suddenly there was this awareness that all these are just the projections of my mind! And I became so present, so aware, and just abide as that present awareness... I did not suppress the fearsome feelings, there's still this feeling arising but theres a recognition that all these are illusion, and if you do not believe in your fear how can it affect you? They also quickly subsided.

Immediately as I become so present and aware, the image of the room and the monster disappears and there was just this bright white light. The tensions continue to arise a while even in this state, but they also slowly subsided.. Because I stopped projecting all the thoughts, only staying as awareness. Soon, I woke up.

I have a feeling that this might be what happens when death comes, except more intense. The dream is almost like a form of bardo state.

Also, a lot of fear are conceptual... we have to be completely present, aware, in order not to continue projecting them or believing in the projections as separate fearful entities. The experience gave me a kind of confidence of the possibility of remaining fearless in the midst of 'fearful situations', though of course I am far from living in that state continously.

I remember I was asking Longchen the other day I met him, I asked something like... does an enlightened person feel fear when watching horror movies? His answer was something like, that if you do not believe in the story, the conceptual fear can subside.

Very good dream.

The lucidity allows one to see the illusion. The dream monster disapears means that the spell is broken at that time. This will translate into the waking hours. We will see how conceptual thinking (narrative of the mind) can bind us into a spell-like state.

Also, the dream monster symbolise a certain aspect of our karmic habit that is still not fully known yet. But you will discover it in due time when the karmic habit appear during the waking hours.

regards

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

 

You know I really 'feel' that message of Chapter 3 yesterday while meditating... I could actually feel that, all thoughts are not absolutely right or wrong and are equally illusory, can be 'doubted', and come and go against the only 'Real' unmoving formless background awareness that is completely alive. That only Consciousness is 'real'. Real in the sense that it IS, an undeniable Presence.

I could not perceive the 'oneness' or 'nondual' nature though. I just stayed with that Awareness and doubted (let go) everything else.

Maybe you guys can comment on that?

Just a sharing...

I think this is an experience of detachment from thought's conditioning power. That's why, you can feel that there are no absolute right or wrong. Yet, at the same time, because of the loosened conditioning, the presence will be felt.

However, i don't think this is an experience of 'no-thought' yet.... not that we need to strive for it. In an experience of 'no thought' and 'no sense impressions', the Presence will be felt as all-pervading. It is not vast, but all pervading. There is a difference here. Vast denotes great distance. All-pervading denotes infinity... no border... no center.

Further insight of this infinity may allow you to understanding why space, location and distance are merely impressions.

Just a sharing. Read with discernment please.. thanks.

Originally posted by Thusness:

More importantly is the question of why is there a separation in the first place.  Why practitioners of all ages see thoughts, sensation...the transience, the impermanence as not our Buddha Nature itself.  Even when told, explained and experienced, how is it that it is not known.  Understanding the power that blinds IMO is equally important. :)

Yah... feeling and understanding the power is very important.

Thanks, Thusness.

Thanks for the interesting article. It really contain many useful insights.

Just a sharing...

The author say that thought is a problem. It may not be entirely accurate.

IMO, when visual vision and thought imagery arise, there is a tendency to compartmentalise certain sections as entities, focus or objects. Next, there is a desire to modify that section. For example, in the visual sense, from the environment you are engaging a conversation with someone. The mind desires to change the 'person' into what it imagines will be the desired outcome. Example, you want to make the person think the way you think and so on so forth. The mind fails to see that this is 'hit and miss' and that the changes is really not dependent on the desire to modify the subject. Rather, it has got to do with the 'person' own willing or not.

So... to me, thought is the not the problem. Instead, the desire to modify and change 'what is' is the cause of suffering.

Also, when we say that we are not the thoughts or the body, unconsciously we have separated 'phemonena' from a 'untouchable' portion of ourself.

The difference at the non-duality stage is that, no attempt is made... Sensations are left as they are...

At the I AM/eternal witness stage, there is a seeking for the place beyond thoughts.

Also, at the I AM/eternal witness, no-suffering is preferred over suffering. There is no understanding that there is really NO blissful place that is beyond pain. When there is pain, there is nothing beyond it too.

So at the I AM/eternal witness stage, attempts may be employed by the mind to get rid of the pain... to go a place beyond the pain. The understanding  that 'sensation and pain' is inseparable from Presence/Buddha Nature is not there yet.

A very nice and inspiring story of Milarepa, the well-known Tibetan saint.

The Story of Milarepa

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Thanks for your sharing.. yes I do think so regarding Bodhisattvas... it's said they will have little or no dreams, and the dreams that occur are related to their Bodhisattva path... aka 'bodhisattva dreams'.

As for what occurs at death, both the bardo thogal and my master suggests that at the time of death it is possible to recognise the Clear Light. My master use the pure land term 寂光. It is of infinite brightness.

BTW what is the difference between 'Presence of Dark Space' and 'Presence of Bright Luminosity'...

I was just reading that in mystical Judaist tradition of Kabbalah, they seem to suggest different levels of experience of Presence or God, and creation... the top is the purest, the 'absolut-test'. What do you think.

The 'rays of creation' (highest-to-lowest classification):

1. The Limitless Light
2. The Limitless and Boundless
3. The vacuum of pure spirit
4. The Boundless World of Divine Names begins
5. Self-Awareness ("I Am")
6. Wisdom, essence of being (Jehovah)

7. Understanding, Jehovah-Elohim, which means "God of Gods"
8. El, which means God the creator (so clearly Jehovah is not the Creator deity. El, in fact, was an ancient god worshipped in cultures prior to the ancient Jews)
9. Elohim Giboor, "severity" or God the Potent - this is basically karma
10. Eloah Vadaath, "beauty" which means God The Strong - this certainly reminds me of "The Great Perfection." This "beauty" occurs in the center of the Kabballistic classification scheme and indicates BALANCE and HARMONY.
11. Jehovah Tzaboath means "Victory" or "God of Hosts" - this is saying that with the backing force of balance, strength and karma, everything is put in its proper place.
12. Elohim Tzaboath, means "Glory" or "Lord God of Hosts" - this is the reflection of BALANCE and HARMONY beginning to take form in mental awareness. So the Beauty of the infinite nondual experience begins to become appreciated as a Glorious perception.
13. the first Foundation - "omnipotent" which is given the name Shaddai El Chai
14. the first Kingdom - Adonai Melekh which means "God" and actually refers to the Earth and physical existence.

 

Just my opinion only...

The dark space is the infinite, borderless and all-pervading quality of Dharmakaya. The luminosity is.. well... the 'brightness' aspect of Dharmakaya. I have experienced both aspects.... perhaps different situation will create a different emphasis.

As for Kabbalah, i am not an expert on it. Bob, is the real expert... but he doesn't come up to my forum nowadays.

regards

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

I wonder if Longchen has read the Bardo Thogal (i.e. Tibetan Book of the Dead) before?

I have the book before. Read a bit here and there... not thorough at all.

Just my opinion...

My belief is that immediately upon the death of the physical body and when the physical-based senses have fully shut down, for a brief moment, one will experience the all-pervading Presence of Dharmakaya. Whether it will be expereinced as dark space or bright luminosity or both, I am not too sure... it may depends.

However, not recognising it, due to inexperience, never experiencing it before, etc, the subconscious dream-like imageries should appear after that. I strongly believe that whatever that appears in this stage are just symbolic representations of our own karmic patterns and beliefs.

My belief is that physical body is only just one aspect of the 'being', the other aspects (such as emotional and mental aspects) do not dissolve with physical death and are thus vividly experienced when the limits imposed by the physical form is gone. The remaining aspects, being unpurified, produces the reactions to the resulting imageries and thus propelling the 'being' towards future rebirths.

It has been said that very highly enlightened persons have very few dreams. My take is that this is because their subconscious mind is highly purified of karmic patterns and beliefs... so much so that there is little or no karmic representations as dream symbols... therefore very few dreams.

Just my opinion only though... don't talk it literally.